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alaskaone
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Date Posted:03/30/2012 10:05 AMCopy HTML

Property tax, after income tax, is one of the most corrosive forms of taxation in existance.  While income tax tells you that you are a slave to various governments, property tax tells you that nothing you worked for belongs to you unless you pay the squeeze.

Seems like maybe some folks are fighting back against property taxes... have a go at this report.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/03/property-tax-revolution-in-north-dakota.html
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
StingFan Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 11:28 AMCopy HTML


Sure wish we would see a movement like that in Texas.  I absolutely hate property taxes.  One thing I believe would really piss people off and maybe spur more on to protest is the "escrow" accounts that most property owners have with their mortgage.  If people had to pay their property tax bill in one lump sum on December 31....they'd be singing a different tune.  Same thing for federal income tax.

June 11, 2009: "No matter how we reform health care, I intend to keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor; if you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan." Barack Obama.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 11:39 AMCopy HTML

Quite true.

Cynical bastards, such as yours truly, believe fdr created social security as a backdoor entry for direct withholding of income tax by employers... something that had been repeatedly shot down by America over and over again.*

Fdr reasoned that imposing such a tax upon people would be far easier if he could tie it to an emotional image;  grandma starving in the gutter.  Once FICA was in place, it took him only a year to apply it to income tax.

*point of interest;  the very few actual cases of senior citizens being rendered homeless were likely due to property taxes!
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
StingFan Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 9:44 PMCopy HTML


Cynical bastards, such as yours truly, believe fdr created social security as a backdoor entry for direct withholding of income tax by employers... something that had been repeatedly shot down by America over and over again.*

County me in as one of the cynics.

June 11, 2009: "No matter how we reform health care, I intend to keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor; if you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan." Barack Obama.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 9:55 PMCopy HTML

Property tax, in existance since 1796.
codify Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 10:19 PMCopy HTML

Still dont make them right. It is a form of a direct tax.
StingFan Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 10:33 PMCopy HTML

Reply to katie5445 (03/30/2012 3:55 PM)

Property tax, in existance since 1796.


Employee withholding wasn't in existance in....that was the comment I was referring to by Alaska.   He's spot on with his opinion.
June 11, 2009: "No matter how we reform health care, I intend to keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor; if you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan." Barack Obama.
himself Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 10:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to StingFan (03/30/2012 4:28 AM)


Sure wish we would see a movement like that in Texas.  I absolutely hate property taxes.  One thing I believe would really piss people off and maybe spur more on to protest is the "escrow" accounts that most property owners have with their mortgage.  If people had to pay their property tax bill in one lump sum on December 31....they'd be singing a different tune.  Same thing for federal income tax.


I guess you could talk to your lender about it.  I opt to pay my property taxes separately and see every cent I send. 

I think the property taxes are the most legitimate, as they pay only for local services.  I'm not sending troops to defend the Middle East or prop up crooked banks.  We have police and fire service and the streets are in good condition.  Maybe some city manager gets paid too much, but our elections are relatively fair and open.

I guess there could be a way to get rid of property taxes, but how are they going to pay for their public services?  Is it going to be like those idiots who watch their houses burn down since they didn't pay their fee for fire services?
If cats had wings I bet they'd still just lie there.
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/30/2012 11:02 PMCopy HTML

Reply to himself (03/30/2012 4:46 PM)

Reply to StingFan (03/30/2012 4:28 AM)


Sure wish we would see a movement like that in Texas.  I absolutely hate property taxes.  One thing I believe would really piss people off and maybe spur more on to protest is the "escrow" accounts that most property owners have with their mortgage.  If people had to pay their property tax bill in one lump sum on December 31....they'd be singing a different tune.  Same thing for federal income tax.


I guess you could talk to your lender about it.  I opt to pay my property taxes separately and see every cent I send. 

I think the property taxes are the most legitimate, as they pay only for local services.  I'm not sending troops to defend the Middle East or prop up crooked banks.  We have police and fire service and the streets are in good condition.  Maybe some city manager gets paid too much, but our elections are relatively fair and open.

I guess there could be a way to get rid of property taxes, but how are they going to pay for their public services?  Is it going to be like those idiots who watch their houses burn down since they didn't pay their fee for fire services?


We pay our property taxes ourselves.  Never had an escrow account even when we had mortgages.  So we've always paid taxes, insurance, etc. up front.  We paid off our mortgages long ago, but still have the property taxes,  I was making the comment in terms of others.  If they had to pay the taxes directly by writing a check, they might get more incensed.  As it is now, they don't really "see" them because the mortgage company pays them.  

I agree, I actually prefer the property tax over income tax, but they are still outrageous especially if you own more than one property.  In Texas, if you own more than one home, there can only be one homestead exemption.  The appraisal district can raise the property value on second homes as much as they want.....and they certainly do on second and vacation home property owners.  That is where we get hit.  Its obscene.

June 11, 2009: "No matter how we reform health care, I intend to keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor; if you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan." Barack Obama.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 2:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to himself (03/30/2012 1:46 PM)

I think the property taxes are the most legitimate, as they pay only for local services.  I'm not sending troops to defend the Middle East or prop up crooked banks.  We have police and fire service and the streets are in good condition.  Maybe some city manager gets paid too much, but our elections are relatively fair and open.
That's a suprising point coming from you, Himself.  I had thought you a lover of all things federal.  Glad to see I may be wrong. 

I guess there could be a way to get rid of property taxes, but how are they going to pay for their public services?  Is it going to be like those idiots who watch their houses burn down since they didn't pay their fee for fire services?
To the point, though... why tax property?  It undermines ownership, a very serious threat.  A simple sales tax upon new products and services would be less damaging and it's automatically quite progressive;  truly poor people do not buy new cars, tv's, etc., etc., etc.


Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 4:53 AMCopy HTML

Reply to codify (03/30/2012 3:19 PM)

Still dont make them right. It is a form of a direct tax.


Really? I get the impression anything and everything the founding fathers did is right, not only right but downright sacred.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 4:55 AMCopy HTML

No, merely unprecedented.  Never before had anyone challenged the idea that people should be ruled by elites.  It was a pretty radical notion.

Still is.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 5:03 AMCopy HTML

But they were elite and very powerful for their time.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 5:12 AMCopy HTML

Do you know what the king would have done to those men had the rebellion failed, Katie?  England was very, very creative with it's methods of torture.

What they did made it possible for the world to change for the better.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 5:26 AMCopy HTML

For awhile, I would have loved to be here the first 50 yrs., I don't want rock anyone's boat but honestly I didn't see a huge difference in living here than in the UK. In actuality their system of elections are cleaner and there seemed to be less corruption in govt. or at least they are busted and out quick. My overall thinking is there is more of an west/east divide, the west seems pretty much in conjunction overall.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 5:42 AMCopy HTML

It is a smaller country, natural it's problems will be smaller. 

Their whole surveillance society, though... cameras everywhere... kinda creepy.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 5:57 AMCopy HTML

Small but 60 million, there history/culture/attitude is different and they've been at it longer. I was there during the election of Blair, it was a sight to behold but then our career politicians make sure we don't go to that place.

katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 6:01 AMCopy HTML

That reminded me they have a law you cannot lie about your political opponent, a Labour MP was running for reelection and he did. He was stricken from the race, his seat and cannot run again for 3 yrs., brilliant.
katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 6:04 AMCopy HTML

Yes the cameras are everywhere, when I first went over it was because of the IRA, they don't put garbage cans in the tube either, bombs. I was evacuated a couple times off the tube in the 90's, IRA bomb threat. They increased after 9/11 and more after the bus bombing.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:03/31/2012 6:31 AMCopy HTML

And... you like that better?  What about soccer hooligans and the rioting they had... what, a few months ago?

I suspect every nation has it's good points and bad.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 1:42 AMCopy HTML

 I hate property taxes----you work your whole life for something, take care of it the best you can, and you end up renting it from the county.  I seriously doubt the FF's foresaw the degree of taxation today.  I wouldn't mind the taxes so much---but there are so many people in this country that pay NO taxes--- no property taxes, no income taxes,  the only thing they chip in is a little by way of sales tax.  And they complain the loudest because they don't get their 'fair share' of government services.  The few that are forced to hold down some kind of employment used to have to kick in for FICA and medicare--but Obama fixed that for them----  big of him, wasn't it.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 3:30 AMCopy HTML

That's the beauty of a sales tax such as the FairTax proposal.  The tax burden is spread more fairly*, more equally and more justly.  It doesn't undermine property rights or human rights nor does it punish people for working or investing in the endeavors of others.





*People who currently escape income/fica taxes by working under the table or in black market industries will be unable to dodge a sales tax quite so easily.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 7:08 AMCopy HTML

Property taxes are based on assessed valuation, what your property is worth & they go up as you improve your property.  Of course most people do not buy property to make money by flipping it, rather they purchase it to live there.  So an argument can be made that property taxes based on value should be paid only on the sale of that property, rather than every year you live there.  Seems like a more than a double whammy.
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 7:34 AMCopy HTML

It's a conflict of interest, Tom, as well as a violation of property rights.

Consider;  the entity that benefits from high assessments is the same entity that performs those assessments.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 8:14 AMCopy HTML

Indeed, plus the real joke is that there is a mechanism that you can use to protest your assessed valuation.  You have to plead your case to those who assessed you too high to begin with.   Yeppir, lots of luck there.
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 8:25 AMCopy HTML

Yup... and in the Anchorage municipality you have to pay a hefty fee to challenge the assessment.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
natalie727 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 10:58 AMCopy HTML

I have a rental property in Iowa and they tried to raise my property taxes last year (I don't even think I could list it for what I bought it for years ago), so I formally protested and sent them a news article stating that Iowa property values decreased 6%.  Asking them where did they get the idea that property taxes have gone up?  Assessing property value means they look at the value/sales and determine if they are up or down, which they clearly didn't, they just DECIDED the value was up...which wouldn't make them the assessors department, more like "the we need more revenue department, so we will try to raise property taxes and hope no one notices department".  My protest was successful, thank God. 
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 8:25 PMCopy HTML

Reply to natalie727 (04/02/2012 5:58 AM)

I have a rental property in Iowa and they tried to raise my property taxes last year (I don't even think I could list it for what I bought it for years ago), so I formally protested and sent them a news article stating that Iowa property values decreased 6%.  Asking them where did they get the idea that property taxes have gone up?  Assessing property value means they look at the value/sales and determine if they are up or down, which they clearly didn't, they just DECIDED the value was up...which wouldn't make them the assessors department, more like "the we need more revenue department, so we will try to raise property taxes and hope no one notices department".  My protest was successful, thank God. 


That crap has been going on all over the nation.  Home and property values dropping, yet "Assessors" increasing the value rather than the rate in order to keep the dollars flowing in.

Some groups in Tennessee are looking at filing class action lawsuits.

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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/02/2012 11:23 PMCopy HTML

 and even though people are unable to pay the taxes that are levied on their property now---- the school districts near me are preparing to build new schools, elementary and secondary.  The facilities they have now are not old and decrepit,they are remodeled and updated quite regularly.  They aren't too small, the student population is dwindling, with more and more people moving south.  But---they aren't quite up to the Taj Mahal standards, so they must, absolutely must build new schools....... and taxes take another hike thru the roof.
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/03/2012 2:43 AMCopy HTML

I consider property taxes to be the most damaging form of coercive taxation to liberty.  I believe property taxes ought to be prohibited in a free country.  Having to pay the government for property you supposedly own "free and clear" indicates what entity truly owns that property.

I don't like income taxes for the same reason - particularly when the government takes its share of tribute (payroll withholding) before the person who earns the money even sees it.

The intrusion of government in America at this point is unbelievable.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:04/03/2012 3:28 AMCopy HTML

A while ago I floated the question; "do we own ourselves?"

The resistance to the idea of self-ownership was widespread and if people are unwilling to claim ownership of even their own bodies, what hope is there that they will claim ownership of anything else?
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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