Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Title: Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.
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Date Posted：03/30/2012 10:05 AMCopy HTML

Property tax, after income tax, is one of the most corrosive forms of taxation in existance. While income tax tells you that you are a slave to various governments, property tax tells you that nothing you worked for belongs to you unless you pay the squeeze.

Seems like maybe some folks are fighting back against property taxes... have a go at this report.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/03/property-tax-revolution-in-north-dakota.html

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 5:27 AMCopy HTML

You pay property tax for the services, to protect and enhance the property's value, not because you own property.  If you don't like the property tax, utility fees are an alternative that many communities have shifted services like water, sewer, and sanitation out of the general fund.  However, the equality really made it hard on fixed incomes, low wage earners, such people sold parts of their land and then their homes and ended up in rentals or homeless.   Property tax is deductible from your income tax, fees are not.

The sales tax doesn't capture non resident property owners, and there are quite a few of those in our state.

I like the fair tax, but I see it being corrupted just like the sales tax, which in our state has pages of exemptions.

What goes around, comes around.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 9:00 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Nickel (04/03/2012 8:27 PM)

You pay property tax for the services, to protect and enhance the property's value, not because you own property.
Taxes are never levied for the benefit of those taxed, Nickel.  I'm not sure I understand your suggestion that property taxes are not because you own property.  Even if that were true, the effect is the same... you don't own your property... not if someone can take it away from you if you don't pay the squeeze.

Why tolerate such a thing?  There are other means of paying for government services.

If you don't like the property tax, utility fees are an alternative that many communities have shifted services like water, sewer, and sanitation out of the general fund.  However, the equality really made it hard on fixed incomes, low wage earners, such people sold parts of their land and then their homes and ended up in rentals or homeless.   Property tax is deductible from your income tax, fees are not.
Property taxes are not equally hard upon fixed income folks?  Do they not get evicted if they don't pay the squeeze?

The sales tax doesn't capture non resident property owners, and there are quite a few of those in our state.
So?  If they are not in your state then they don't 'cost' anyone, anything.  Sales taxes do bring into contribution the black market; drug dealers, gamblers, prostitutes, under-the-table folks.

I like the fair tax, but I see it being corrupted just like the sales tax, which in our state has pages of exemptions.
I like the fair tax, too... and I see it as inherently less apt for corruption than property or income tax.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 11:53 AMCopy HTML

You don't "own" your property nor do you "own" youself, Alaska.  

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 12:19 PMCopy HTML

I do not own my property due to "property taxes".

I do, however, own myself.

Lick my boots, slave.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 12:41 PMCopy HTML

And you don't own yourself due to income & other taxes & restrictions imposed on your person.  BTW, slaves don't lick other slaves boots.  Save that for the master.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 1:23 PMCopy HTML

If you wish to regard yourself as a slave, that's your prerogative.  It makes you less than human and thereby lends credence to the worldview of (modern)liberals who believe the 'general public' are little more than balky cattle that must be cared for cradle to grave and milked as often as possible.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 4:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (03/30/2012 11:31 PM)

And... you like that better?  What about soccer hooligans and the rioting they had... what, a few months ago?

I suspect every nation has it's good points and bad.

Never said anything about "better," I said I found life comparable, which I have noticed in western countries as I said our great difference politically and culturally is with the east.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：04/04/2012 5:04 PMCopy HTML

Just tellin' it like it is, Alaska.  Must be nice to live in Delusional Land.  Do you feel better about yourself?

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 2:01 AMCopy HTML

I'm changing the subject of this thread from resistance to unethical taxation to resistance toward the growing tyranny in general.

A federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of a part of the National Defense Authorization Act that opponents claim could subject them to indefinite military detention for activities including news reporting and political activism. 

U.S. District Judge Katherine Forrest in Manhattan today ruled in favor of a group of writers and activists who sued President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and the Defense Department, claiming a provision of the act, signed into law Dec. 31, puts them in fear that they could be arrested and held by U.S. armed forces. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-16/military-detention-law-blocked-by-new-york-judge.html

Judge Napolitano: First Patriot To Shoot Down A Government Spy Drone 'Will Be A Hero'...

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:07 AMCopy HTML

Reply to HungryJack (04/01/2012 8:42 PM)

 I hate property taxes----you work your whole life for something, take care of it the best you can, and you end up renting it from the county.  I seriously doubt the FF's foresaw the degree of taxation today.  I wouldn't mind the taxes so much---but there are so many people in this country that pay NO taxes--- no property taxes, no income taxes,  the only thing they chip in is a little by way of sales tax.  And they complain the loudest because they don't get their 'fair share' of government services.  The few that are forced to hold down some kind of employment used to have to kick in for FICA and medicare--but Obama fixed that for them----  big of him, wasn't it.

I seriously doubt the FF's foresaw the degree of taxation today 

They had in them such a respect for the liberty of the individual that they might possibly had thought the idea of people handing over their liberty to a nanny state was inconceivable.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:13 AMCopy HTML

Authoritarianism is really, really attractive.  Even George Washington succumbed to it as is evident in his reaction to the whiskey rebellion.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:52 AMCopy HTML

But do you think they would have complied with it as much as it is in evidence today?

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:56 AMCopy HTML

A federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of a part of the National Defense Authorization Act that opponents claim could subject them to indefinite military detention for activities including news reporting and political activism. 


That covers writers and activists. Does having a blog qualify you as either? 
And 0bama will do as he has done with other rulings - just ignore them since the other two branches of government have yet to grow a pair and stop him.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/17/2012 11:47 PMCopy HTML

Property tax pays for local services and it's the only way to get non resident property owners to help pay for the services.

Sales tax goes to the state and is partially redistributed.  Pages of exemptions, all good causes no doubt, but clearly not capable of supporting the state's expenses.

Income tax is currently low in our state but that can always change.  I don't see the justification for it at the state level but I'm fine with the federal government operating within that revenue stream.

The problem for me is that each tax entity has multiple streams of revenue.  Cities have user fees for utilities like sanitation, water, and sewer, in addition to property taxes.  User fees in our state parks and national parks, hardly make them our parks anymore.  

People should fight back, but only if they haven't voted to have services provided.  Once you ask for services, you have to be willing to pay for them.  Just because other people in the community vote to have services you don't want doesn't excuse you, but you can always move to the county, just don't expect more than gravel roads and dusty summers.

What goes around, comes around.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/18/2012 3:04 AMCopy HTML

Add to that list some states and cities, like Virginia Beach, VA, that have a vacation tax.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/18/2012 11:45 PMCopy HTML

"Property taxes are not equally hard upon fixed income folks?  Do they not get evicted if they don't pay.."

Property taxes---when they were based on the value of your home when you bought it---were predictable and affordable, otherwise you would not have been able to buy the home.  

Then some BITCH in California became outraged that she was paying more in property taxes than her neighbor who had a similar home, but had bought it years ago when the property was less expensive.  Emter market valuations.  The assessor estimates the current value of your home based on sales of similar homes in your neighborhood.  Your property is assessed accordingly and instead of paying on a $100,000 dollar home, suddenly you may have a $200,000 home.  That moved many people on fixed incomes out of their homes,  so many in fact that our state developed a homeowners exemption and circuit breaker to help some of those people stay in their homes, but many were victimized before those went into effect.  

The issue went to the Supreme Court which found that communities had an interest is stable housing that justified a longer term home owner paying less than a more recent homeowner.  But market valuation went viral across the country and states enjoyed the windfalls, until of course victims started showing up in legislative chambers.

As you probably know, Proposition 13 caused many problems.  Local tax entities switched some services to user fee, enterprise funds to make up for the lost revenues from property taxes.  That too swept across the country.  States across the nation switched to user fees AND  market valuations, only Florida and California did not.
 
So, both market valuation and user fees funded some of the best salary and benefit packages ever seen for city and county employees.  

Then, as if things weren't bad enough for taxpayers,  privatization became a means of lowering property taxes:  the private sector can always do it better and for less money than the government.  Yeah, right.  Why no one notices poorer services, higher costs, is a mystery, and it gets worse, the employees living in the community are earning less money and  need assistance from the community, or other jobs in order to survive.  The private company raking in the local money with annual COLA increases is located in another state which does not circulate in or benefit the local economy.  It all increases the costs to taxpayers, and is done right under their noses in the name of saving tax dollars.

end of rant...time to water the garden

What goes around, comes around.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/19/2012 12:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (04/02/2012 9:28 PM)

A while ago I floated the question; "do we own ourselves?"

The resistance to the idea of self-ownership was widespread and if people are unwilling to claim ownership of even their own bodies, what hope is there that they will claim ownership of anything else?

I think you are talking about two different things here, Alaska.  Owning oneself is not the same as a person owning something that is taxed and is told what to do with that which is owned.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/25/2012 3:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Aprildaze (05/18/2012 3:23 PM)

Reply to alaskaone (04/02/2012 9:28 PM)

A while ago I floated the question; "do we own ourselves?"

The resistance to the idea of self-ownership was widespread and if people are unwilling to claim ownership of even their own bodies, what hope is there that they will claim ownership of anything else?

I think you are talking about two different things here, Alaska.  Owning oneself is not the same as a person owning something that is taxed and is told what to do with that which is owned.  

Why is it different?  If you do not own yourself then you do not own anything.

http://www.niutoday.info/2012/05/23/niu-sociologist-jeffrey-kidder-leads-new-study-that-finds-everyday-tax-talk-is-morally-charged/

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：05/25/2012 3:40 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Nickel (05/17/2012 2:47 PM)

Property tax pays for local services and it's the only way to get non resident property owners to help pay for the services.
Is that really a big problem?  A sales tax would bring the underground economy into the tax base and I suspect that would far exceed 'non-resident' property owners.

Sales tax goes to the state and is partially redistributed.  Pages of exemptions, all good causes no doubt, but clearly not capable of supporting the state's expenses.
The fair tax, for example, eliminates all exemptions.

Income tax is currently low in our state but that can always change.  I don't see the justification for it at the state level but I'm fine with the federal government operating within that revenue stream.
The state and local level is where the bulk of all government duties take place, Nickel.  If anything, they have a greater claim to legitimacy than does the federal government.

The problem for me is that each tax entity has multiple streams of revenue.  Cities have user fees for utilities like sanitation, water, and sewer, in addition to property taxes.  User fees in our state parks and national parks, hardly make them our parks anymore.
I agree.  I like the "KISS" principle and the FairTax is the simplest method I have seen and the fairest as well.  

People should fight back, but only if they haven't voted to have services provided.  Once you ask for services, you have to be willing to pay for them.  Just because other people in the community vote to have services you don't want doesn't excuse you, but you can always move to the county, just don't expect more than gravel roads and dusty summers. 
The federal government offers very few services that we, the citizens of the united states, want or need.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/10/2012 5:43 AMCopy HTML

Though it hasn't been celebrated as such, Scott Walker's victory in Wisconsin represents the full flowering of the tea party movement. It is also a sign -- among others -- that the Republican Party has recaptured its ideological core.
The tea partyers are often mischaracterized as extreme right-wingers. Thus, proponents of same-sex marriage or unrestricted abortion will invoke "tea party" elements as those most opposed to their efforts. That's off target. Though many in the movement may have conservative social views, those weren't the issues that spurred them to organize, demonstrate and vote.
No, the tea partyers -- judging by their signs, speeches and writings -- were alarmed about irresponsible government spending, bailouts of the undeserving and spiraling debt. The tea partyers are actually the 21st century "goo-goos" -- good government types -- the label that was attached to progressives in the early 20th century. They aren't anarchists, racists (as in the more febrile accusations of their opponents) or culture warriors. They simply want to see government scale back and perform its essential functions fairly, efficiently and honestly.
For some time, Republican office holders were little better than Democrats when it came to spending, accountability and reform. The size of government seemed to grow inexorably under both parties. Some Republicans earned and deserved tea party disdain.
But we are now in an era of true Republican reform. The reformers are Republican governors who, like Scott Walker, have chosen to tackle the bloated budgets and corrupt bargains of state governments. At least a half dozen Republican governors -- Bobby Jindal in Louisiana, Chris Christie in New Jersey, Mitch Daniels in Indiana, Susana Martinez in New Mexico, Bob McDonnell in Virginia, and Walker himself -- have taken on the public sector unions frontally.
The word "corrupt" is not too strong for a system that worked like this: Unions worked to elect Democrats. Once elected, Democrats passed laws that permitted states to withhold union dues from state employee paychecks, further enriching and entrenching public sector unions. State governments then signed contracts with the unions giving far more generous pay, work rules (like teacher tenure) and benefits than the average taxpayer receives. Unions thus elected the people who sat across the table from them in contract negotiations. As Victor Gotbaum, a New York City union leader boasted, "We have the ability to elect our own boss." That mutual backscratching has burdened taxpayers with pension and other liabilities mounting into the trillions.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/06/08/walker_victory_this_is_what_the_tea_party_is_about_114416.html

The movement is having a real effect and judging from the animosity the rino's exhibit towards us and towards ron paul... they're terrified.

Good.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/10/2012 5:45 AMCopy HTML

I wonder if this will carry over to the November elections ...

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 3:38 AMCopy HTML

 Ak 1, the income tax answered that question a LONG time ago.  You are the days of your life, sum total. The government owns a percentage of those, outright, by confiscating the market value of those days.  Welcome to the plantation.

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 11:16 AMCopy HTML

Republicans Join Democrats to Save Corporate Welfare (Again)

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:01 PMCopy HTML

Reply to codify (03/30/2012 4:19 PM)

Still dont make them right. It is a form of a direct tax.

so, i don't got a problem with direct taxation. people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors.

thinking is a dangerous thing

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:11 PMCopy HTML

I do wish people could seperate in their minds the feds from local government.

The feds are not local government.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:18 PMCopy HTML

didn't say they were.

thinking is a dangerous thing

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Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:23 PMCopy HTML

Yes, you did.

"people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors."

Those are all local government functions, not federal.  Yet it's a near constant refrain when talking about reducing the size and power of the federal government;  no more paved streets!  no more policemen!  no more firefighters!  Anarchy!

Hooey.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

Rank：TAE Member
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From：USA
Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM

Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (06/11/2012 6:23 AM)

Yes, you did.

"people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors."

Those are all local government functions, not federal.  Yet it's a near constant refrain when talking about reducing the size and power of the federal government;  no more paved streets!  no more policemen!  no more firefighters!  Anarchy!

Hooey.  

no i didn't. the federal government doesn't collect properity taxes. properity taxes are used to pay for local services.
however federal taxes pay for things like the coast guard, the interstate, air trafic control. MN hasn't much of a coast line and the natives up north are a friendly. so i don't think a coast guard is need here.
i do know the difference between local and federal.

thinking is a dangerous thing

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From：USA
Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM

Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:46 PMCopy HTML

Awesome.

Why tax property?  It rapes property rights.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

Rank：TAE Member
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From：USA
Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM

Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:54 PMCopy HTML

property values would diminish without things like what i mention. so in a way proptery taxes increases the value of property. remember you live in a very low density state. are you fully aware of what it takes to have a viable large metro area? a place where people want to live in, rather than want to move out of?

thinking is a dangerous thing

alaskaone
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Date Posted：03/30/2012 10:05 AMCopy HTML Property tax, after income tax, is one of the most corrosive forms of taxation in existance. While income tax tells you that you are a slave to various governments, property tax tells you that nothing you worked for belongs to you unless you pay the squeeze. Seems like maybe some folks are fighting back against property taxes... have a go at this report. http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/03/property-tax-revolution-in-north-dakota.html Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Nickel	Share to: #31
Rank：TAE Member Score：1768 Posts：1528 From：USA Register：12/10/2008 12:41 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 5:27 AMCopy HTML You pay property tax for the services, to protect and enhance the property's value, not because you own property. If you don't like the property tax, utility fees are an alternative that many communities have shifted services like water, sewer, and sanitation out of the general fund. However, the equality really made it hard on fixed incomes, low wage earners, such people sold parts of their land and then their homes and ended up in rentals or homeless. Property tax is deductible from your income tax, fees are not. The sales tax doesn't capture non resident property owners, and there are quite a few of those in our state. I like the fair tax, but I see it being corrupted just like the sales tax, which in our state has pages of exemptions. What goes around, comes around.
alaskaone	Share to: #32
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 9:00 AMCopy HTML Reply to Nickel (04/03/2012 8:27 PM) You pay property tax for the services, to protect and enhance the property's value, not because you own property. Taxes are never levied for the benefit of those taxed, Nickel. I'm not sure I understand your suggestion that property taxes are not because you own property. Even if that were true, the effect is the same... you don't own your property... not if someone can take it away from you if you don't pay the squeeze. Why tolerate such a thing? There are other means of paying for government services. If you don't like the property tax, utility fees are an alternative that many communities have shifted services like water, sewer, and sanitation out of the general fund. However, the equality really made it hard on fixed incomes, low wage earners, such people sold parts of their land and then their homes and ended up in rentals or homeless. Property tax is deductible from your income tax, fees are not. Property taxes are not equally hard upon fixed income folks? Do they not get evicted if they don't pay the squeeze? The sales tax doesn't capture non resident property owners, and there are quite a few of those in our state. So? If they are not in your state then they don't 'cost' anyone, anything. Sales taxes do bring into contribution the black market; drug dealers, gamblers, prostitutes, under-the-table folks. I like the fair tax, but I see it being corrupted just like the sales tax, which in our state has pages of exemptions. I like the fair tax, too... and I see it as inherently less apt for corruption than property or income tax. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog	Share to: #33
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 11:53 AMCopy HTML You don't "own" your property nor do you "own" youself, Alaska. Live respected, die regretted
alaskaone	Share to: #34
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 12:19 PMCopy HTML I do not own my property due to "property taxes". I do, however, own myself. Lick my boots, slave. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog	Share to: #35
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 12:41 PMCopy HTML And you don't own yourself due to income & other taxes & restrictions imposed on your person. BTW, slaves don't lick other slaves boots. Save that for the master. Live respected, die regretted
alaskaone	Share to: #36
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 1:23 PMCopy HTML If you wish to regard yourself as a slave, that's your prerogative. It makes you less than human and thereby lends credence to the worldview of (modern)liberals who believe the 'general public' are little more than balky cattle that must be cared for cradle to grave and milked as often as possible. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
katie5445	Share to: #37
Rank：TAE Member Score：17452 Posts：17428 From：USA Register：12/27/2008 6:36 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 4:18 PMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (03/30/2012 11:31 PM) And... you like that better? What about soccer hooligans and the rioting they had... what, a few months ago? I suspect every nation has it's good points and bad. Never said anything about "better," I said I found life comparable, which I have noticed in western countries as I said our great difference politically and culturally is with the east.
tommytalldog	Share to: #38
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：04/04/2012 5:04 PMCopy HTML Just tellin' it like it is, Alaska. Must be nice to live in Delusional Land. Do you feel better about yourself? Live respected, die regretted
alaskaone	Share to: #39
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 2:01 AMCopy HTML I'm changing the subject of this thread from resistance to unethical taxation to resistance toward the growing tyranny in general. A federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of a part of the National Defense Authorization Act that opponents claim could subject them to indefinite military detention for activities including news reporting and political activism. U.S. District Judge Katherine Forrest in Manhattan today ruled in favor of a group of writers and activists who sued President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and the Defense Department, claiming a provision of the act, signed into law Dec. 31, puts them in fear that they could be arrested and held by U.S. armed forces. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-16/military-detention-law-blocked-by-new-york-judge.html Judge Napolitano: First Patriot To Shoot Down A Government Spy Drone 'Will Be A Hero'... Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Womyn_of3	Share to: #40
Rank：Honored Member Score：1069 Posts：803 From：USA Register：12/02/2008 12:35 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:07 AMCopy HTML Reply to HungryJack (04/01/2012 8:42 PM) I hate property taxes----you work your whole life for something, take care of it the best you can, and you end up renting it from the county. I seriously doubt the FF's foresaw the degree of taxation today. I wouldn't mind the taxes so much---but there are so many people in this country that pay NO taxes--- no property taxes, no income taxes, the only thing they chip in is a little by way of sales tax. And they complain the loudest because they don't get their 'fair share' of government services. The few that are forced to hold down some kind of employment used to have to kick in for FICA and medicare--but Obama fixed that for them---- big of him, wasn't it. I seriously doubt the FF's foresaw the degree of taxation today They had in them such a respect for the liberty of the individual that they might possibly had thought the idea of people handing over their liberty to a nanny state was inconceivable.
alaskaone	Share to: #41
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:13 AMCopy HTML Authoritarianism is really, really attractive. Even George Washington succumbed to it as is evident in his reaction to the whiskey rebellion. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Womyn_of3	Share to: #42
Rank：Honored Member Score：1069 Posts：803 From：USA Register：12/02/2008 12:35 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:52 AMCopy HTML But do you think they would have complied with it as much as it is in evidence today?
Womyn_of3	Share to: #43
Rank：Honored Member Score：1069 Posts：803 From：USA Register：12/02/2008 12:35 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 3:56 AMCopy HTML A federal judge temporarily blocked enforcement of a part of the National Defense Authorization Act that opponents claim could subject them to indefinite military detention for activities including news reporting and political activism. That covers writers and activists. Does having a blog qualify you as either? And 0bama will do as he has done with other rulings - just ignore them since the other two branches of government have yet to grow a pair and stop him.
Nickel	Share to: #44
Rank：TAE Member Score：1768 Posts：1528 From：USA Register：12/10/2008 12:41 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/17/2012 11:47 PMCopy HTML Property tax pays for local services and it's the only way to get non resident property owners to help pay for the services. Sales tax goes to the state and is partially redistributed. Pages of exemptions, all good causes no doubt, but clearly not capable of supporting the state's expenses. Income tax is currently low in our state but that can always change. I don't see the justification for it at the state level but I'm fine with the federal government operating within that revenue stream. The problem for me is that each tax entity has multiple streams of revenue. Cities have user fees for utilities like sanitation, water, and sewer, in addition to property taxes. User fees in our state parks and national parks, hardly make them our parks anymore. People should fight back, but only if they haven't voted to have services provided. Once you ask for services, you have to be willing to pay for them. Just because other people in the community vote to have services you don't want doesn't excuse you, but you can always move to the county, just don't expect more than gravel roads and dusty summers. What goes around, comes around.
Womyn_of3	Share to: #45
Rank：Honored Member Score：1069 Posts：803 From：USA Register：12/02/2008 12:35 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/18/2012 3:04 AMCopy HTML Add to that list some states and cities, like Virginia Beach, VA, that have a vacation tax.
Nickel	Share to: #46
Rank：TAE Member Score：1768 Posts：1528 From：USA Register：12/10/2008 12:41 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/18/2012 11:45 PMCopy HTML "Property taxes are not equally hard upon fixed income folks? Do they not get evicted if they don't pay.." Property taxes---when they were based on the value of your home when you bought it---were predictable and affordable, otherwise you would not have been able to buy the home. Then some BITCH in California became outraged that she was paying more in property taxes than her neighbor who had a similar home, but had bought it years ago when the property was less expensive. Emter market valuations. The assessor estimates the current value of your home based on sales of similar homes in your neighborhood. Your property is assessed accordingly and instead of paying on a $100,000 dollar home, suddenly you may have a $200,000 home. That moved many people on fixed incomes out of their homes, so many in fact that our state developed a homeowners exemption and circuit breaker to help some of those people stay in their homes, but many were victimized before those went into effect. The issue went to the Supreme Court which found that communities had an interest is stable housing that justified a longer term home owner paying less than a more recent homeowner. But market valuation went viral across the country and states enjoyed the windfalls, until of course victims started showing up in legislative chambers. As you probably know, Proposition 13 caused many problems. Local tax entities switched some services to user fee, enterprise funds to make up for the lost revenues from property taxes. That too swept across the country. States across the nation switched to user fees AND market valuations, only Florida and California did not. So, both market valuation and user fees funded some of the best salary and benefit packages ever seen for city and county employees. Then, as if things weren't bad enough for taxpayers, privatization became a means of lowering property taxes: the private sector can always do it better and for less money than the government. Yeah, right. Why no one notices poorer services, higher costs, is a mystery, and it gets worse, the employees living in the community are earning less money and need assistance from the community, or other jobs in order to survive. The private company raking in the local money with annual COLA increases is located in another state which does not circulate in or benefit the local economy. It all increases the costs to taxpayers, and is done right under their noses in the name of saving tax dollars. end of rant...time to water the garden What goes around, comes around.
Ex_Member	Share to: #47
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：09/21/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/19/2012 12:23 AMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (04/02/2012 9:28 PM) A while ago I floated the question; "do we own ourselves?" The resistance to the idea of self-ownership was widespread and if people are unwilling to claim ownership of even their own bodies, what hope is there that they will claim ownership of anything else? I think you are talking about two different things here, Alaska. Owning oneself is not the same as a person owning something that is taxed and is told what to do with that which is owned.
alaskaone	Share to: #48
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/25/2012 3:23 AMCopy HTML Reply to Aprildaze (05/18/2012 3:23 PM) Reply to alaskaone (04/02/2012 9:28 PM) A while ago I floated the question; "do we own ourselves?" The resistance to the idea of self-ownership was widespread and if people are unwilling to claim ownership of even their own bodies, what hope is there that they will claim ownership of anything else? I think you are talking about two different things here, Alaska. Owning oneself is not the same as a person owning something that is taxed and is told what to do with that which is owned. Why is it different? If you do not own yourself then you do not own anything. http://www.niutoday.info/2012/05/23/niu-sociologist-jeffrey-kidder-leads-new-study-that-finds-everyday-tax-talk-is-morally-charged/ Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #49
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：05/25/2012 3:40 AMCopy HTML Reply to Nickel (05/17/2012 2:47 PM) Property tax pays for local services and it's the only way to get non resident property owners to help pay for the services. Is that really a big problem? A sales tax would bring the underground economy into the tax base and I suspect that would far exceed 'non-resident' property owners. Sales tax goes to the state and is partially redistributed. Pages of exemptions, all good causes no doubt, but clearly not capable of supporting the state's expenses. The fair tax, for example, eliminates all exemptions. Income tax is currently low in our state but that can always change. I don't see the justification for it at the state level but I'm fine with the federal government operating within that revenue stream. The state and local level is where the bulk of all government duties take place, Nickel. If anything, they have a greater claim to legitimacy than does the federal government. The problem for me is that each tax entity has multiple streams of revenue. Cities have user fees for utilities like sanitation, water, and sewer, in addition to property taxes. User fees in our state parks and national parks, hardly make them our parks anymore. I agree. I like the "KISS" principle and the FairTax is the simplest method I have seen and the fairest as well. People should fight back, but only if they haven't voted to have services provided. Once you ask for services, you have to be willing to pay for them. Just because other people in the community vote to have services you don't want doesn't excuse you, but you can always move to the county, just don't expect more than gravel roads and dusty summers. The federal government offers very few services that we, the citizens of the united states, want or need. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #50
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/10/2012 5:43 AMCopy HTML Though it hasn't been celebrated as such, Scott Walker's victory in Wisconsin represents the full flowering of the tea party movement. It is also a sign -- among others -- that the Republican Party has recaptured its ideological core. The tea partyers are often mischaracterized as extreme right-wingers. Thus, proponents of same-sex marriage or unrestricted abortion will invoke "tea party" elements as those most opposed to their efforts. That's off target. Though many in the movement may have conservative social views, those weren't the issues that spurred them to organize, demonstrate and vote. No, the tea partyers -- judging by their signs, speeches and writings -- were alarmed about irresponsible government spending, bailouts of the undeserving and spiraling debt. The tea partyers are actually the 21st century "goo-goos" -- good government types -- the label that was attached to progressives in the early 20th century. They aren't anarchists, racists (as in the more febrile accusations of their opponents) or culture warriors. They simply want to see government scale back and perform its essential functions fairly, efficiently and honestly. For some time, Republican office holders were little better than Democrats when it came to spending, accountability and reform. The size of government seemed to grow inexorably under both parties. Some Republicans earned and deserved tea party disdain. But we are now in an era of true Republican reform. The reformers are Republican governors who, like Scott Walker, have chosen to tackle the bloated budgets and corrupt bargains of state governments. At least a half dozen Republican governors -- Bobby Jindal in Louisiana, Chris Christie in New Jersey, Mitch Daniels in Indiana, Susana Martinez in New Mexico, Bob McDonnell in Virginia, and Walker himself -- have taken on the public sector unions frontally. The word "corrupt" is not too strong for a system that worked like this: Unions worked to elect Democrats. Once elected, Democrats passed laws that permitted states to withhold union dues from state employee paychecks, further enriching and entrenching public sector unions. State governments then signed contracts with the unions giving far more generous pay, work rules (like teacher tenure) and benefits than the average taxpayer receives. Unions thus elected the people who sat across the table from them in contract negotiations. As Victor Gotbaum, a New York City union leader boasted, "We have the ability to elect our own boss." That mutual backscratching has burdened taxpayers with pension and other liabilities mounting into the trillions. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/06/08/walker_victory_this_is_what_the_tea_party_is_about_114416.html The movement is having a real effect and judging from the animosity the rino's exhibit towards us and towards ron paul... they're terrified. Good. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian	Share to: #51
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/10/2012 5:45 AMCopy HTML I wonder if this will carry over to the November elections ... Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
Ex_Member	Share to: #52
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：09/21/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 3:38 AMCopy HTML Ak 1, the income tax answered that question a LONG time ago. You are the days of your life, sum total. The government owns a percentage of those, outright, by confiscating the market value of those days. Welcome to the plantation.
alaskaone	Share to: #53
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 11:16 AMCopy HTML Republicans Join Democrats to Save Corporate Welfare (Again) Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly	Share to: #54
Rank：TAE Member Score：2929 Posts：2527 From：USA Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:01 PMCopy HTML Reply to codify (03/30/2012 4:19 PM) Still dont make them right. It is a form of a direct tax. so, i don't got a problem with direct taxation. people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors. thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone	Share to: #55
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:11 PMCopy HTML I do wish people could seperate in their minds the feds from local government. The feds are not local government. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly	Share to: #56
Rank：TAE Member Score：2929 Posts：2527 From：USA Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:18 PMCopy HTML didn't say they were. thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone	Share to: #57
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:23 PMCopy HTML Yes, you did. "people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors." Those are all local government functions, not federal. Yet it's a near constant refrain when talking about reducing the size and power of the federal government; no more paved streets! no more policemen! no more firefighters! Anarchy! Hooey. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly	Share to: #58
Rank：TAE Member Score：2929 Posts：2527 From：USA Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:37 PMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (06/11/2012 6:23 AM) Yes, you did. "people forget that town and cities are incorporated. and many who live in them like having paved streets and sidewalks, sewage removal, police and fire protection. if you don't like that, go live in the boonies where you have no neighbors." Those are all local government functions, not federal. Yet it's a near constant refrain when talking about reducing the size and power of the federal government; no more paved streets! no more policemen! no more firefighters! Anarchy! Hooey. no i didn't. the federal government doesn't collect properity taxes. properity taxes are used to pay for local services. however federal taxes pay for things like the coast guard, the interstate, air trafic control. MN hasn't much of a coast line and the natives up north are a friendly. so i don't think a coast guard is need here. i do know the difference between local and federal. thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone	Share to: #59
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:46 PMCopy HTML Awesome. Why tax property? It rapes property rights. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly	Share to: #60
Rank：TAE Member Score：2929 Posts：2527 From：USA Register：12/17/2008 2:58 PM	Re：Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back. Date Posted：06/11/2012 12:54 PMCopy HTML property values would diminish without things like what i mention. so in a way proptery taxes increases the value of property. remember you live in a very low density state. are you fully aware of what it takes to have a viable large metro area? a place where people want to live in, rather than want to move out of? thinking is a dangerous thing