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alaskaone
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Date Posted:03/30/2012 10:05 AMCopy HTML

Property tax, after income tax, is one of the most corrosive forms of taxation in existance.  While income tax tells you that you are a slave to various governments, property tax tells you that nothing you worked for belongs to you unless you pay the squeeze.

Seems like maybe some folks are fighting back against property taxes... have a go at this report.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/03/property-tax-revolution-in-north-dakota.html
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #61
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/11/2012 1:31 PMCopy HTML

there are other methods of raising tax revenue besides raping property rights and turning everyone into renters.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #62
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/11/2012 2:54 PMCopy HTML

like what? i don't like the sales tax.
thinking is a dangerous thing
Hayekian Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #63
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/12/2012 3:27 AMCopy HTML

I don't like any tax - however, the sales (consumption type) tax is the least invasive of the various forms of taxes.

I consider income and property taxes to be the worst forms - income taxation is a direct imposition upon one's productivity, whether it involves gains from investment of capital or savings, or compensation for labor or products.  Property tax imposes a "first lien" on all property - ensuring that property ultimately reverst to the government.  Property tax is a rent imposed on that property - which means someone who purchases real estate really only purchases a right to rent that property from the government at a rate that is set not by competition, but imposed by government and/or the voting public.

This is a very, very bad thing - in essence there is no real property ownership as long as there are property taxes.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #64
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/12/2012 3:37 AMCopy HTML

Agreed.

There are ways to fund the activities we require of the various governments without enslaving people or taking their stuff.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #65
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/12/2012 4:01 AMCopy HTML

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #66
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/12/2012 1:56 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Hayekian (06/11/2012 9:27 PM)

I don't like any tax - however, the sales (consumption type) tax is the least invasive of the various forms of taxes.

I consider income and property taxes to be the worst forms - income taxation is a direct imposition upon one's productivity, whether it involves gains from investment of capital or savings, or compensation for labor or products.  Property tax imposes a "first lien" on all property - ensuring that property ultimately reverst to the government.  Property tax is a rent imposed on that property - which means someone who purchases real estate really only purchases a right to rent that property from the government at a rate that is set not by competition, but imposed by government and/or the voting public.

This is a very, very bad thing - in essence there is no real property ownership as long as there are property taxes.



i don't like the property tax because it creates a need to have money.

if you don't like property tax that much, move to a ghost town. some towns are becoming such because there isn't a means to pay for service that people want. many people expect services and are willing to pay for them even if you don't want to. eliminating property taxes will be eliminating those services. the result is lower property values. so it seems that maintaining property values isn't a concern of yours but you neighbors may disagree with you.

at buildings containing condos, there is a fee that covers maintaining the common areas. property taxes are used to maintain the common areas of a community.

---Property tax imposes a "first lien" on all property - ensuring that property ultimately reverst to the government.---

you have forgot something called equity. i have rented all by life and i have nothing to show for it.

---income taxation is a direct imposition upon one's productivity,---


 oh try having a productive profitable business without money. the dollar is the creation of the federal government. feeling the way you do, why not your own monetary system? if you do, post the results here. i would be interested in how it turns out.

thinking is a dangerous thing
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #67
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/12/2012 10:14 PMCopy HTML

Property taxes are based on assessed valuation......what you should be able to get for the house when you sell it.  Problem is most people do not buy houses to sell them, they buy them to live in em.  So why should we have to pay every year based on what the house would sell for....without selling it?  Then when you do sell it, you pay more taxes?
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Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #68
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 7:04 AMCopy HTML

most people expect some local services and are willing to pay for them. no matter what method is selected to pay for them, somebody is going to object.

thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #69
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 8:26 AMCopy HTML

That depends upon how 'fair' the tax is and what the tax money is used for and how it is used, Knightly.

A "FairTax" has many advantages;  it doesn't violate human or property rights and it brings into the tax base people who normally do not contribute much, if anying... black market and under the table folks.

That's the collection.  How it is used is equally important.  If it's squandered on foolishness, corruption, and monopolies then people are correct to complain.  If it's used frugally and efficiently, you won't hear any complaints.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #70
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 12:06 PMCopy HTML

Who sez taxes were ever meant to be "fair?"  Taxes are not, & have never been "fair."  Like the weather, somebody will always complain about them. Taxes = civilization & are required.  Of course Libertarians are still back in the frontier where they grow their own food, make their own clothes, & depend on nobody else to help them. 

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alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #71
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 12:14 PMCopy HTML

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.  Attempting to do away with the worst forms of taxation and replace them with the least objectionable hardly seems like what you are suggesting.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #72
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 12:26 PMCopy HTML

That is exactly my point, arrived at in my usual convoluted way.
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alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #73
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 12:35 PMCopy HTML

The workings of your mind are truly awe inspiring.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #74
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 12:41 PMCopy HTML

Just my feeble attempt to point out both sides of the issue, Alaska.  We need taxes & we also need to change the way we collect em. 
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Hayekian Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #75
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/13/2012 7:47 PMCopy HTML

"... oh try having a productive profitable business without money. the dollar is the creation of the federal government. feeling the way you do, why not your own monetary system?  ..."  knightly

What are you saying with that question?  It seems like you are making the point that whatever entity provides currency owns everything.  If that is what you are attempting to say, then you do not have a clear understanding of monetary economics, money or currency.  Here is a good reference for you:  Money: What It Is, How It Works

"i don't like the property tax because it creates a need to have money."  knightly

What?  Any tax creates a need to have money.

"if you don't like property tax that much, move to a ghost town. some towns are becoming such because there isn't a means to pay for service that people want. many people expect services and are willing to pay for them even if you don't want to. eliminating property taxes will be eliminating those services. the result is lower property values. so it seems that maintaining property values isn't a concern of yours but you neighbors may disagree with you."  knightly

Around here areas with lower property tax have higher property values - which is counter to your argument.

"you have forgot something called equity. i have rented all by life and i have nothing to show for it."  knightly

Had you bought at the wrong time you could have lost equity - at least you took no risk.  There are many reasons why renting is often a better option than ownership.  In any case, the point I was making is still the same - the "equity" being built up isn't for actual ownership of real property as with property taxes it is really the government that owns the property.  The equity is in the value people will pay for the right to use of the property provided they continue to pay the government rent in the form of property taxes - unless of course the government decides to take the right to use the property away through various means such as eminent domain.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #76
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 5:29 AMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (06/11/2012 8:11 AM)
I do wish people could seperate in their minds the feds from local government.

The feds are not local government.


People have them separated; your launch talks property tax which is or was the primary local government revenue stream.  Sales tax is the primary state revenue stream.  Income tax is the primary Federal revenue stream.  However, there has been some revenue envy blurring the lines and states have gotten into income tax  Idaho has a thing about fees and property tax and refuses to let local entities charge a fee when it's property tax by another name.  So, a storm water utitlity fee was shot down recently the court and the revenues collected have to be returned to those who paid them.  Unfortunately, the city spent the money collected and is now trying to figure out the repayment.  They are squirming. 

Local governments are in many instances the federal government writ smaller, even though as you rightly point out the feds are not local government. You are working from the top down and the writers of Reinventing Government claim that it has to work from the bottom up. If you look at federal legislation, it often comes after several states have gone a certain direction. That's how we came to have federal drug laws, for example.  If it looks like there's popular support for a given direction, the Congress tends to follow it, step to the front of the parade. Legislation followed the tobacco decisions, restaurants were already going smoke free to please clientele. Members of Congress don't seem to lead, so much as follow the perceived temperament of the people, sometimes as it's presented in the media."""""
What goes around, comes around.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #77
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 5:38 AMCopy HTML

Property tax, as it's supposed to function is a very good thing, and deductible from state and federal tax forms.  User fees are not deductible.

The city is borrowing from an enterprise fund, user fees, to fund the renovation of an old downtown building for the "new" library.   Bond elections for a new library over the last 20 years have failed, but have typically gotten a majority though not the super majority 66 percent required.. 

What goes around, comes around.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #78
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 6:57 AMCopy HTML

Hiya, Nickel!

Here's the thing.  I suspect I'm not alone in the feeling that I'm being nickled and dimed to death by all the various governments.  I saw once, from a kid at some university, a report.  Dude had calculated all the upfront taxes, the stealth taxes and the user fees we all pay and came up with an figure of 45% of our entire incomes siphoned off to feed the insatiable appetites of all the governments.  I can no longer find the thesis or I would link to it.

Anyway, I'll concede that government is necessary (though not to the extent we are inflicted with today) and I'll concede that they provide services that need to be paid for.

What I will not concede is the idea that property or human rights must be undermined in order to obtain the money.  And I find it especially vexing that the entity I derive the least benefit from is the one siphoning off the most of my money.

Property taxes undermine property rights and income taxes undermine human rights.  There are better ways.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #79
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 1:13 PMCopy HTML

Other than "every man for himself", what are those "better ways, Alaska?
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alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #80
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 1:22 PMCopy HTML

FairTax, is one.  User fees are another. 
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #81
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 1:30 PMCopy HTML

No such thing as taxes being fair, of course they could be fairer.  You mean a consumption tax?
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alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #82
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 1:38 PMCopy HTML

Yes.  The FairTax concept taxes only new products and services.  Currently, it suggests a "prebate" to alleviate the effect of the tax upon food... but I'd do away with that as it opens the door to endless swelling as a pander to voters.

The benefits of a consumption tax are simplicity and expansion of the tax base as the black market is brought onto the tax rolls.  At the same time, it's a somewhat voluntary tax in that if a person wanted to, they could buy only used stuff.

It's the least offensive funding scheme for government services I've yet heard of.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #83
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 1:56 PMCopy HTML

I agree with you on this one.  But the Libtards always argue that a consumption tax in unfair to poor people.  Seems they make a case that the poverty stricken consume more products.  Go figure?
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katie5445 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #84
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 2:56 PMCopy HTML

You won't see an argument from me, I don't like our tax system but I have no clue what type of tax to enforce. It will effect the entire country/economy and I'm afraid I'm not that smart so I'll leave it to those who seem to think they are.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #85
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/23/2012 3:08 PMCopy HTML

Reply to tommytalldog

I agree with you on this one.  But the Libtards always argue that a consumption tax in unfair to poor people.  Seems they make a case that the poverty stricken consume more products.  Go figure?
Couldn't even begin.  Genuinely poor people don't buy new stuff... so, no tax.  Food, yes, they would pay the tax but at that price level, the tax is insignificant.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/28/2012 12:21 AMCopy HTML

thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #87
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/28/2012 2:35 AMCopy HTML

As an ex-land lord, the property tax on my building was factored into the rent I charged my tenants.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #88
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/28/2012 1:25 PMCopy HTML

of course you did because an expense of doing business. if you want to do things your way, start your own settlement. then you can have it incorporated your way.

i am just not bothered by things that bother you.
thinking is a dangerous thing
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Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/28/2012 9:04 PMCopy HTML

Taxes are the price we pay for a safe and sane society.  I'm happy to pay them.
What goes around, comes around.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #90
  • Rank:TAE Member
  • Score:19191
  • Posts:16957
  • From:USA
  • Register:12/03/2008 3:25 AM

Re:Lights in the darkness; people are fighting back.

Date Posted:06/29/2012 1:20 AMCopy HTML

Really, Nickel?  Happy your money is used to wage endless warfare across the globe?  Happy your money is siphoned off for solyndra's, to fund retirees tooling about the country in gigantic rv's?

How much taxes are you willing to pay?  Currently we're all losing about 45% of every dollar we make to various taxes.  Willing to lose 50%?  70%?  100%?

I think you're not paying enough.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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