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alaskaone
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Date Posted:03/06/2009 9:28 AMCopy HTML

I'm just so curious about that.  Here is a program funded by a flat tax on the poorest demographic, the proceeds of which are given to the wealthiest demographic... and hardly anyone objects.

Welfare money is collected by a tax on working people, some of the proceeds of which go to non-working people, i.e., people on welfare.

It's true that the feds have lied about SS from the very beginning back in 1935.  First they said it was like 'insurance'.  That's even what they called it at first, "Old Age Insurance".  Today, 85+ years later, SS still lies about it's own nature; we're told we each have an account from which we'll get such and such an amount when we're old.

But the supreme court of the US has ruled... not once but twice... that no one has any such thing.  Since the Supreme Court ranks higher than the SS administration, that means SS is lying.

Why is most everyone so reluctant to call a spade, "a spade"?  Is it because they would have to admit and accept that they've been defrauded?  Cheated?  Is it because of the shame that normal people would feel for being on welfare?

I don't see that being ashamed of being on welfare when, in fact, you were tricked into it is necessary.  Good grief, several generations have been tricked, lied to... conned.

So why is it no one will admit that SS is welfare?
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
codify Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 12:49 PMCopy HTML

And we are tormented into telling authorities how useless we are. Great for an adherent society!
codify Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 1:02 PMCopy HTML

The more useless we are, the greater reward.

Get a gooberment grant 2009!  Speaking of which....
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 1:56 PMCopy HTML

it is an insurance.  people pay into it and then collect.  do away with welfare and more people will be robbing banks.  not an improvement.  so what is your point!?
thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:11 PMCopy HTML

Well, no... it's not insurance.  Supreme court was pretty clear on that.  No contractual obligations whatsoever.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:13 PMCopy HTML

Thanks for brightening my day, Alaska.  After I read your lead post I went in my bathroom, looked at myself in the mirror and said "you're on welfare". I even tried it with different expressions on my face - stern, disapproving, resentful, shocked, incredulous, angry, ashamed, proud - all with the same result. I'm still laughing.

smiley49  
"As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way."
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:27 PMCopy HTML

We aim to be entertaining as well as informative!

Did you know it is possible to polish a turd?  Saw it on Myth Busters yesterday...
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
cathymv Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:39 PMCopy HTML

ss is now nothing more than a ponzi scheme... ss was supposed to help suppliment peoples income.. not be the main source or only source of income... but because people continually abdicate personal responsibility to the government... we now have a generation that depends on government handouts... they depend on the government supporting them... and this is what the government loves.. becasue then the government can make you do what it wants you to do because its holding your life on their pursestrings!!!! 

I pay into the system, give me my money, I will take care of it.. and I promise the government will not have to take care of me in my older years.... this thought terrifies politicians.. they DO NOT want americans to be independent from the government trough... and independent american is their nightmare...

see ya
cathy :)
Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.....except for the election of Donald Trump.
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:43 PMCopy HTML

Did you know it is possible to polish a turd? 

I've never seen it done, but wouldn't bet against it. I've learned that when someone wants to bet that they can do something, they usually can. It does beg the question though- how did someone discover this ability? And....will it save us from.... what's out there?
"As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way."
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:53 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (03/06/2009 8:11 AM)

Well, no... it's not insurance.  Supreme court was pretty clear on that.  No contractual obligations whatsoever.


impeach them and get judges there who will see the issue as it should be seen.  problem solved.
thinking is a dangerous thing
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 2:55 PMCopy HTML

the stockmarket is ponzi scheme and so is money.  you really don't know how the banking system works.
thinking is a dangerous thing
ftjames Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 3:46 PMCopy HTML

Well, another few more years, and I'll be on welfare. Never been on welfare before. Haven't climbed Mt Everest either. Isn't life grand?
Charles_Brown Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 3:54 PMCopy HTML

People either pay into social security now and receive the welfare checks from it later or people don't pay into social security now and still collect the welfare checks from it later.  If we have learned nothing else in the last year, we should have learned that people are irresponsible and financially inept.  Social security may be a welfare scam, but at least you are forcing those who will benefit from it eventually to contribute to it now.

Nice guys finish.
xgunny Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 3:56 PMCopy HTML

Don't worry about it boss. It's kinda like being tied up and sexually abused by the Dallas Cowboy's  cheerleaders. It ain't near as bad as it sounds, and you can come to enjoy it.
smiley10
"As you slide down the banister of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way."
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 3:57 PMCopy HTML

Ponzi schemes cannot endure, C.B., not even when they're operated by the government. 

How heavy a tax burden are you willing to place on your children?  Currently, all taxes bundled together work out to around 45%... are you willing to crush the life out of your children by jacking that up to 60?  80%?

Is that what children are for?  Slave labor?
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
ftjames Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 4:06 PMCopy HTML

 I've contributed to it for many years CB. I believe I'm ready for some cheerleader abuse!!
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 4:19 PMCopy HTML

again with the tax whinning.  inflation will rob you more than taxes.
thinking is a dangerous thing
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 4:29 PMCopy HTML

And both come from where...?

Unka sam and the sammies?  Say it ain't so!
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 7:09 PMCopy HTML

i say it isn't so.  much of inflation is caused by the creation of liquidity.  the government doesn't create liquidity,  the banks do.  for every cash dollar,  the banks are allowed to create $10 of liquidity. 
thinking is a dangerous thing
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/06/2009 11:13 PMCopy HTML

I will admit that Social Security may be a type of welfare, but the people who collect from it also have contributed to it.  There will always be a need to help those who do not or can not help themselves.  Social Security helps those people who did not prepare and uses, in part, their own resources.
Nice guys finish.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 5:00 AMCopy HTML

i say it isn't so.  much of inflation is caused by the creation of liquidity.  the government doesn't create liquidity,  the banks do.  for every cash dollar,  the banks are allowed to create $10 of liquidity.

Inflation is caused by the dumping of unearned dollars by the treasury printing them up without restraint.  When a bank creates money for a legitimate loan... say to build a house or buy a business, the money is paid back with interest.  It's entirely different than when the feds just start up the presses to pay off their bills and debts, Knightly.

C.B.,

Few would argue against aiding someone who truly needs assistance.  Social security may aid some folks who really need help but it also created the circumstances that caused those people to need help in the first place.

And now it is going to suck the life out of people in order to give money to other people who don't really need it.  Robbing the poorest demographic in order to give to the wealthiest.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
ftjames Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:11 AMCopy HTML

Few would argue against aiding someone who truly needs assistance.  Social security may aid some folks who really need help but it also created the circumstances that caused those people to need help in the first place.


How do you figure? There was a reason for SS when it was created. Not all people are prepared for retirement. Not all people are smart enough, or capable enough to save for their retirements. The only way times have changed is there are less people prepared for no longer working. Nothing has changed Alaska!! SS has become more important then any time in our countries history. The story of the grasshopper, and the ant has never had more meaning.

IN a field one summer’s day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart’s content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.  1
  “Why not come and chat with me,” said the Grasshopper, “instead of toiling and moiling in that way?”  2
  “I am helping to lay up food for the winter,” said the Ant, “and recommend you to do the same.”  3
  “Why bother about winter?” said the Grasshopper; “we have got plenty of food at present.” But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil. When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food, and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew:
        “IT IS BEST TO PREPARE FOR THE DAYS OF NECESSITY.”

alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:26 AMCopy HTML

How do you figure? There was a reason for SS when it was created.

Yes, there was a reason for SS but it isn't the one you're suggesting.  Fdr wanted payroll taxes but pretty much everyone in the nation said, "no fucking way".  He needed an emotional issue that couldn't be effectively argued against so he made one up; grandma starving in the gutter.

Grandmas weren't actually starving in the gutter but that didn't matter.  If you opposed fdrs ponzi scheme, you were accused of wanting grandma to starve in the gutter... pure emotional bullshit.

It was called, 'old age insurance', which was pure propaganda.  It was funded via a payroll tax... making all the employers in the nation defacto revenue agents for the federal government.  About a year or two later, Fdr tied income taxes to the payroll tax.  That was his goal from the beginning, I believe.

Not all people are smart enough, or capable enough to save for their retirements.

Perhaps.  Not all people are short.  Not all people are tall.  Not all people are thin or fat or able to tie their shoes.  That is an issue for states, cities and towns to address.  Not the federal government.  Excessive federal taxation certainly makes providing for your own future much more difficult, don't you think?

The only way times have changed is there are less people prepared for no longer working. Nothing has changed Alaska!! SS has become more important then any time in our countries history.

Nothing has changed?  It started with 47 people working for every one person drawing benefits.  Soon that ration will be 2:1 and the programs have expanded exponentially; medicare, medicaide, prescription drugs.

Set that problem aside.  SS created an expectation that people didn't have to provide for their own futures... unka sam and sammies would look after them by creating their very own retirement accounts.

Well, James... that was a lie.  There are no 'accounts'.  It was a fraud.  From the very beginning in 1935 it was a fraud.  To this very day, SS continues to lie about it.  There are no accounts, there is no money... except what is taken from a group of people who are, demographically speaking, less well off than the people they're being forced to support.

That's a problem... don't you think? 
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
ftjames Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #23
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:31 AMCopy HTML

Yes, SS was a scheme. That doesn't excuse the fact that not all people are prepared. Make them work for SS, or pay them for nothing. That is exactly what will happen, and you know it.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #24
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:39 AMCopy HTML

I'm not suggesting we kick everyone to the curb.  Several generations have been conned into dependance upon SS and the other programs.  While I think they were stupid to believe the feds but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Were I to stear the boat, I'd means test SS and wind it down... fulfil obligations to those who really, really need it and let the kids know that they need to plan for their own futures.  I would stop taxing interest income,  stop taxing investments, stop inflating the dollar and scale back the federal government to pre-income tax levels while using the surplus to pay off the federal debt and fulfill obligations.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:46 AMCopy HTML

Possibly. Have a good night Alaska! This soon to be SS beneficiary has gone past his bed time. :]
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 12:38 PMCopy HTML

Social Security is a socialist plan propagated by the socialist government of FDR & designed to save us from ourselves & keep us off the "dole" in our old age.  Kinda like forced savings.  Of course the money could be put to much better use & higher returns if people would save properly & invest in their own future.  But that would be asking for them to actually be responsible for their own lives.  Out of the question.  SS is not the best plan, but what is the recourse?

T-Dog
Live respected, die regretted
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 3:28 PMCopy HTML

There is no recourse except total economic collapse.  This collapse of society caused by the Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid entitlement schemes will make Madoff look like a piker.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #28
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 3:53 PMCopy HTML

why should workers save for retirement when they aren't going to live long enough to collect?
thinking is a dangerous thing
tommytalldog Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #29
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Knightly (03/07/2009 9:53 AM)

why should workers save for retirement when they aren't going to live long enough to collect?

Its like life insurance Knightly.  You bet your gonna die & the insurance co bets your gonna life.  BTW, are you a member of the optimist club?

T-Dog
Live respected, die regretted
Knightly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:03/07/2009 6:33 PMCopy HTML

no
thinking is a dangerous thing
You'll never get out of this world alive
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