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alaskaone
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Date Posted:03/06/2009 9:28 AMCopy HTML

I'm just so curious about that.  Here is a program funded by a flat tax on the poorest demographic, the proceeds of which are given to the wealthiest demographic... and hardly anyone objects.

Welfare money is collected by a tax on working people, some of the proceeds of which go to non-working people, i.e., people on welfare.

It's true that the feds have lied about SS from the very beginning back in 1935.  First they said it was like 'insurance'.  That's even what they called it at first, "Old Age Insurance".  Today, 85+ years later, SS still lies about it's own nature; we're told we each have an account from which we'll get such and such an amount when we're old.

But the supreme court of the US has ruled... not once but twice... that no one has any such thing.  Since the Supreme Court ranks higher than the SS administration, that means SS is lying.

Why is most everyone so reluctant to call a spade, "a spade"?  Is it because they would have to admit and accept that they've been defrauded?  Cheated?  Is it because of the shame that normal people would feel for being on welfare?

I don't see that being ashamed of being on welfare when, in fact, you were tricked into it is necessary.  Good grief, several generations have been tricked, lied to... conned.

So why is it no one will admit that SS is welfare?
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
nofencesfacing Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #121
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:07/27/2016 2:27 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (07/27/2016 8:11 AM)

Reply to tommytalldog (07/27/2016 1:55 AM)

The Lion's Club would be an excellent voluntary project, but every resident still owes the country two years of some kind of mandatory service. Like the old CCC or WPA of the depression years. Or even the military..........GASP!.


Tdog


You don't owe your country anything for being born.  Your country doesn't owe you owe you anything for being born.

What you propose is merely slavery with a pretty bow on it and a theoretical expiration date.

alaskaone, I agree. 

Again, using capitalism instead “slavery” you will have more income to donate from if you want.  Also you get to pick the “need” you think is important and not some government bureaucrat. 

Tdog, your idea is full of waste and smacks of tyranny.

oldarmybear Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #122
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:07/27/2016 3:16 PMCopy HTML

Personally, I do my volunteer work with Kiwanis Club/Kiwanis International. Both Lions and Kiwanis along with myriad other fraternal organizations do a lot of good in the world.
Nickel Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #123
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:07/31/2016 4:16 PMCopy HTML

 All done volunteering!  It was harder and longer hours than when I worked.

Social Security is a rose by another name for welfare which has a stigma.  Stigma is a real problem.  Circuit Breaker was nearly impossible to get eligible seniors to apply for years ago because their first assumption was that it was welfare.  Seniors were being forced out of their homes by the market value assessments all but two states switched to after California's Prop 13.  Seniors, on fixed incomes, could afford the property taxes based on the purchase price of their homes, but when market value hit, their homes increased in value beyond their means to pay the property tax, forcing them to sell.

Market assessment was such a windfall to government that it spread like a virus, and even though the Supreme Court ruled a community had an interest in its stability and that assessments based on purchase price provided a community with stability, the damaging trend was not undone...adjustments like the homeowners exemption and circuit breaker were implemented....more bureaucracy and increased expenses.

Social Security is about the general welfare and not specific to individuals until they reach eligibility.....that reduces the expense of maintaining individual accounts until they're needed.  Workers who have deductions made before their checks are received find it far easier to save than when they have to write a check to a retirement or savings plan.

So social security is a beautiful system!  Remove the cap on the rich, or at least extend it, and ss financial woes would disappear. Making each generation pay its own way is fairer than workers today in lesser numbers paying for the retirement of others in greater numbers.  Boomers are selfish, perhaps the next generation will change it, but they better pay attention because their opening, if one exists, will be small, given that the next set of boomers is even larger so it has to be done before they start paying into the system and after current boomers don't have the numbers to object.



What goes around, comes around.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #124
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/01/2016 9:16 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Nickel (07/31/2016 7:16 AM)

Social Security is about the general welfare
No, I don't think it is.  SS was about imposing direct withholding of taxes upon the nations employers... nothing more.  Fdr could not have cared less about 'general welfare', he wanted direct withholding and the nation had violently struck down every attempt to impose it prior.

and not specific to individuals until they reach eligibility.....that reduces the expense of maintaining individual accounts until they're needed.
What you are saying is, 'there are no individual accounts'.

Workers who have deductions made before their checks are received find it far easier to save than when they have to write a check to a retirement or savings plan.
Umm, that's an interesting way to look at taxation.  It's also an interesting way to look at people.

So social security is a beautiful system!
I'm afraid I cannot agree.

Remove the cap on the rich, or at least extend it, and ss financial woes would disappear.
I'm afraid the math doesn't work out.  Remember that medicare is part of social security and that is the behemoth that lays beneath the tip of the social security iceberg.

Making each generation pay its own way is fairer than workers today in lesser numbers paying for the retirement of others in greater numbers.
I agree... except with the 'making' part.  Our government does not possess the wit or wisdom to be given the right to make anyone do anything.

Boomers are selfish, perhaps the next generation will change it, but they better pay attention because their opening, if one exists, will be small, given that the next set of boomers is even larger so it has to be done before they start paying into the system and after current boomers don't have the numbers to object.
The Singaporean system offers a viable alternative to our ss/medicare debacle.  Are you familiar?


Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
PragmaticLiberal Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #125
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/03/2016 8:47 PMCopy HTML

My thoughts.

1. Abolish Old Age Insurance.  We also have Disability Insurance. Those who are too old to work would qualify for this, but those who can keep working would not. A single retirement age makes no sense. White collar workers often start working later but also go another 10 to 20 years later in ability to work than blue color workers. Also allow those who own their home but would otherwise qualify to get food stamps.  I would lift the income cap on disability insurance and apply it to all income not just earned income. I would also elimate the employer's half of the tax. We should not be punishing businesses for hiring Americans. 

2. Role Medicare into Medicaid and open it up for all Americans.  If you wish and can afford otherwise knock yourself out.  As far as government paid healthcare reduce healthcare to paliative for those who are terminally ill and have less than six months to live. Get people out of the hospital emergency rooms and into clinics. Allow the importation of prescription drugs from other developed counties. 

3. This concept would eliminate much of the social service burden on employers, reduce needless services, expand aid to those who really need it while contracting it to those who do not, and help eliminate waste.  Overall it would benefit the country in general. 
oldarmybear Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #126
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/04/2016 7:53 PMCopy HTML

 Why do you hate old folks?
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/09/2016 2:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to oldarmybear (08/04/2016 1:53 PM)

 Why do you hate old folks?

We do not hate them.  Some of our best friends...

We just do not understand why your vote from decades ago, of promising yourself the next few generations' money, was considered rational.  If you wanted a retirement fund you should have made sure you put in enough money away for it.  You didn't do that and then you wasted what little money there was plus trillions more that you did not have on other things.  You were told about the problems decades ago and you did nothing about the problems. 

 

SS is just an example of eating your own (small) cake and having it (and a larger cake) too.

PragmaticLiberal Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #128
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/12/2016 4:35 AMCopy HTML

     I do not hate old people, I am just not sure if Grandpa who is already doing well needs an allowance to go to the casino with. I am not sure if it is the best use of our money. If we are talking about federal solvency we are talking about Social Security, healthcare, defense, and interest on the debt. It is not poor people who are pushing us under but old people. I am not saying we should not have a safety net for old people, but some of it needs to be reconsidered.  The payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare are paid half by the employer. This is a big burden on American employers making American labor more expensive. 
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #129
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/12/2016 10:56 AMCopy HTML

 Check out the system Singapore has devised.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/12/2016 4:44 PMCopy HTML

The payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare are paid half by the employer. This is a big burden on American employers making American labor more expensive. 

No, companies just pay the employees less.  If the “market rate” for labor is $10.00 an hour that is all a company has to pay.  The employee pay is reduced by the 7.65% to $9.235 to get back to the market rate. 

alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #131
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/13/2016 8:31 PMCopy HTML

Reply to nofencesfacing (08/12/2016 7:44 AM)

The payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare are paid half by the employer. This is a big burden on American employers making American labor more expensive. 

No, companies just pay the employees less.  If the “market rate” for labor is $10.00 an hour that is all a company has to pay.  The employee pay is reduced by the 7.65% to $9.235 to get back to the market rate.  <!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /-->


Well said.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/13/2016 10:19 PMCopy HTML

      The Singapore system has merits, especially with user fees on healthcare to slow down over utilization.  We should consider adopting elements of it.  One element that makes the Singapore system work in general is that families can share their savings plans. In a country like Singapore with extensive family networks that might work better than in America where often people are isolated.
        On paying less there is something call the minimum wage, you can only pay employees so much less. Higher payings jobs it maybe true the employer can just take it out of the pay, but it is low paying jobs that are really at competition for jobs overseas or maybe more expensive than some small business can afford.  Some little restaurnt might really need another employee, but they just cannot afford all the costs of bringing on that employee under the law. 


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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/14/2016 11:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to PragmaticLiberal (08/13/2016 4:19 PM)

      The Singapore system has merits, especially with user fees on healthcare to slow down over utilization.  We should consider adopting elements of it.  One element that makes the Singapore system work in general is that families can share their savings plans. In a country like Singapore with extensive family networks that might work better than in America where often people are isolated.
        On paying less there is something call the minimum wage, you can only pay employees so much less. Higher payings jobs it maybe true the employer can just take it out of the pay, but it is low paying jobs that are really at competition for jobs overseas or maybe more expensive than some small business can afford.  Some little restaurnt might really need another employee, but they just cannot afford all the costs of bringing on that employee under the law. 


Small businesses cannot afford it because large companies use their monopolistic powers to set prices and wage.  They get direct and indirect welfare from government.  We saw the power that the banks had over the market and the government.  Why people refuse to see that other companies also have the same kind of control over the market and the government is beyond me.     



alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #134
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:08/14/2016 12:14 PMCopy HTML

Reply to PragmaticLiberal (08/13/2016 1:19 PM)

      The Singapore system has merits, especially with user fees on healthcare to slow down over utilization.
It's not a 'user fee', PL.  It's a free market up until a certain level of expense.  After that, the government (read taxpayers) pick up the tab.  The vitally important aspect here is that these accounts are owned by individuals.  It's their money and they know it.  It's their money and they can pass it along to their children.  Because each individual owns their account, they draw from it with that in mind.  It's a demonstration of Freidman's 4 ways to spend money.

 We should consider adopting elements of it.  One element that makes the Singapore system work in general is that families can share their savings plans. In a country like Singapore with extensive family networks that might work better than in America where often people are isolated.

I don't think that's all that relevant.  The savings account is sufficient for isolated individuals.

On paying less there is something call the minimum wage, you can only pay employees so much less.
The principle holds true even at minimum wage and you should be able to recognize that the damage done at low wages is far greater than at higher ones.   FICA kills.

Higher payings jobs it maybe true the employer can just take it out of the pay, but it is low paying jobs that are really at competition for jobs overseas or maybe more expensive than some small business can afford.
Service work, which is what tends to cluster around minimum wage in this country, isn't really exportable.  Some fast food joints are experimenting with automation but other mini-wage work... not really suited to automation.

 Some little restaurnt might really need another employee, but they just cannot afford all the costs of bringing on that employee under the law. 
A job that doesn't pay quite what you want is better than no job at all... and entry level jobs are precisely that, entry level.  What we have done with our absurdly high minimum wage laws is we have removed entry level jobs from the reach of those who need them the most.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #135
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:01/05/2019 5:01 AMCopy HTML

Bumped, for Nickel


This thread contains most of the data I've based my statements upon and some pretty good conversation. 

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:01/16/2019 7:22 PMCopy HTML

Why? The Singapore system is easily, perhaps for Americans more easily corrupted than our current system. Money can be withdrawn for housing, and that alone in California could empty the account. Ah, that’s a choice, accept your personal responsibility. Workers choose their jobs, no job is guaranteed. For some outdated skills, the jobs disappear. Companies find it saves money to irk the hell out of senior employees so they can hire young folks with updated skills for less money. Widows and orphans have an especially difficult time surviving since daycare probably takes her paycheck if she is able to find a job with her skills. Again, the infusion of social security into each community dealing with these issues is a stabilizing factor for their economy. Since virtually all communities within all the states must deal with citizens suffering from such disadvantages, that a federal program eases the burden for all of them is cost effective and efficient. Social security allows the federal government to secure loans at a much lower interest rate than would be possible without it. Removing the cap and ensuring that each generation pays its own way would end the financial concerns. Medicare is a drain, but that should be reverted back to the states and their counties to provide competition, thereby ensuring quality care at the lowest price. Instead we have treatments for symptoms rather than cures because that’s where the money is to be made. Instead of prevention, we have surgeries for that’s where the money is. Insurance that pays for it just drives the cost higher. The military has a good system, not perhaps so great for dependents, but that could be changed. The private sector has siphoned off tax dollars in contracts for services beyond all reason.
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:01/22/2019 8:10 PMCopy HTML

Welfare is for needy people. The hours they have worked doesn’t determine how much they are entitled to receive. I don’t know the particulars of Welfare, never having received it, but I know as grateful as I might be for it, I’d feel ashamed. My children were eligible for free school lunch, and I argued with my husband as he filled out the forms, hid them, and threw them away whenever I got the chance. We should not have had so many children if free lunches were needed at his rank, living in Hawaii or not. I worked the lunch counter at jr high school to get a free lunch. Mom’s moldy bread sandwich convinced me. Kids probably made fun, but I was fortunate enough not to hear or notice, ravenous in 8th grade. People eligible for social security benefits have paid into the system, so they should not be viewed in the same way as welfare recipients who have failed to sustain themselves in our capitalist society. I take back what I said about a rose by another name. I really hate that people twist social security this way to shame people into giving it up for whatever classical liberal reason they have.
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #138
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:01/26/2019 3:50 PMCopy HTML

You misunderstand me, I'm afraid.  I do not state the truth out of desire to shame seniors out of drawing social security.  Seniors are the victims of the crime, manipulated and lied to by an evil man, fdr and the preditory government he created.


I've debated with myself for years now, how I shall choose when and if the time comes.  With good fortune, I shall not need to participate in taking from the poor to feed myself.  On the other hand, few will refrain from taking from my children to enrich themselves.  Will I draw benefits to give to them to my children?  That's the horrible rationale that plagues me.  Participate in evil to benefit my children.


Hell, given the evil that the federal government does routinely, I'm already participating.  Yes, the evil of the federal government is far less than other governments in the world but I'm not forced to pay taxes to those, only to unka sam.  And with that money, unka same commits atrocities across the globe, turns senior citizens into paracites upon the young, plunges the nation into un-repayable debt, brings in millions of people whose religion is incompatible with our entire civilization, whose average intelligence level guarantees they will become burdens... I can go on and on and on.


The really sad thing is, as incompetent, perverse, immoral, unethical and downright malevolent as unka sam is... he's not as bad as the rest of the bastards out there.  So... there's that.


When an intergenerational injustice is being committed, one that has... above all other things... plunged the nation in to 21 trillion dollars of debt... how can I not speak the truth about it?  How can I know point it out?  How can I not tell everyone I can;  This is a fatal problem that doesn't need to be happening.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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Re:Why can't people admit that social security is welfare?

Date Posted:01/29/2019 6:01 PMCopy HTML

Your venting reminds me of Thoreau’s position on the Spanish-American War and his refusal to pay taxes to such a government which landed him in jail until his friend Emerson paid in order to get him released. Walden is a book by transcendentalist Henry David Thoreau. The text is a reflection upon simple living in natural surroundings. The work is part personal declaration of independence, social experiment, voyage of spiritual discovery, satire, and—to some degree—a manual for self-reliance. .......... It’s not that I disagree with your points that it is unfairly funded and burdens your children, my disagreement comes from your willingness to discard social security instead of repair it so that each generation pays its own way. Now is a good time to get that done because another boomer generation, larger than this one is on the way to having things their way. Removing the cap is fair and would provide financial support from those who can afford it better than those currently funding social security. Tough battles that Congress would rather ignore, staying in office being their primary concern. Eventually, social security fails because it was set up to fail by those opposing it from the beginning. Notice that cheating the people out of a year was the only solution Congress could come up with in order to delay the issue until it’s someone else’s problem.
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