-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Title: -$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast
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Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM

Date Posted：05/26/2010 4:01 PMCopy HTML

AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
TOPS $13,000,000,000,000;
DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975;
US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3%

None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure. Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 7:23 AMCopy HTML

  Bush was wrong. Obama is trying to make him look like a piker.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 7:37 AMCopy HTML

Bush & republicrats:     $4.857 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats:  $6.474 trillion in only 4 years. 

Now, if mr obama somehow manages to get himself re-elected and if the tea party movement turns out to be much ado about nothing then it is pretty safe to assume federal spending will continue without meaningful retard.  In fact, I would bet the rent money federal spending will continue to increase.  

However, for the purpose of illustration lets assume federal spending continues exactly as it has been for the last 1 year and 7 months.  By the time obama leaves he and the republicrats will have increased the national debt by $12.948 trillion dollars.

Bush and republicrats:   $4.847 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats:  $12.948 trillion in 8 years. 

Add that 12.948 trillion to the 10.627 trillion they started with gives us a projection of $23.575 trillion dollar national debt by 2018.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 8:09 AMCopy HTML

  Unfunded liabilities are a politicians best friend. My worst nightmare. How anybody can think that is responsible, I just cannot fathom. I think the bastards just count on the fact that at least 99% of the population just isn't paying attention. When the other 1% of us even bring it up, we get either blank, uncomprehending stares or treated like conspiracy nuts.

  It makes me feel like this guy. Not the bank robbery in the video, just the lyrics: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R96CTtFtyr0 

  Not my usual musical fare, but apropos.

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Register：03/19/2009 4:12 AM

Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 4:32 PMCopy HTML

Hey Alaska, I saw several of those signs around my area.....where road and waterworks construction and replacement were taking place.  The signs were small and basically insignificant, but the jobs the stimulus provided are noted by those signs as was the construction going on.  What wasn't noted was the jobs saved or created by those construction jobs in the industries that are supportive of such operations, like the blacktop businesses, the pipe and drainage manufacturers, the aggregate manufacturers....all those jobs, all those people at work and just a few insignificant signs showing the huge significance of it to our area.  Stimulus money at work, for America, for US!    

The time is always right to do what is right.

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Register：08/09/2008 12:01 PM

Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 5:06 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (07/15/2010 12:50 AM)

Bush & republicrats added     $4.857 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats added $2.559 trillion in 1 year, 7 months. 

If current spending rate continues unaccelerated then...

Bush & republicrats:     $4.857 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats:  $6.474 trillion in only 4 years.

687 Billion dollars is added to the deficit every year because of the Bush tax cuts.  Should we let them expire?

Is that 2.559 what is added or is that the total spending of the government?  To my knowledge the Budget deficit is 1.6 trillion.

end the Bush tax cuts
end the wars
bring back our manufacturing industry
reform entitlements

I AM REAL!!! I AM REAL!!!!

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Register：07/16/2008 6:51 PM

Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/15/2010 6:03 PMCopy HTML

 Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh.  You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual.
Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able.  

We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to mrscorie (07/15/2010 8:06 AM)

Reply to alaskaone (07/15/2010 12:50 AM)

Bush & republicrats added     $4.857 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats added $2.559 trillion in 1 year, 7 months. 

If current spending rate continues unaccelerated then...

Bush & republicrats:     $4.857 trillion in 8 years.
Obama & republicrats:  $6.474 trillion in only 4 years.

687 Billion dollars is added to the deficit every year because of the Bush tax cuts.  Should we let them expire?
Here's a radical idea; reduce spending.  I know!  Call me, "Mr. Whacky!"

Is that 2.559 what is added or is that the total spending of the government?  To my knowledge the Budget deficit is 1.6 trillion.
$2.559 trillion is the amount of money added to the national debt in the last 1 year & 7 months according to the budget clock.

end the Bush tax cuts.
Reduce spending!
end the wars
Now you're cooking with gas!
bring back our manufacturing industry
What?  At gun point?  Stop taxing the shit out of business and they'll come back on their own.
reform entitlements
Halleluja, praise god and pass the peanuts!  She has seen the light!  Welcome to the Dark Side, my dear!

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:24 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Yazmine88 (07/15/2010 9:03 AM)

 Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh.  You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual.

Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able.  

Really.  Care to point out, Yaz, any time in recent history... say the last 50 years... that the federal government has reduced spending.  

Don't bother with the clinton meme.  The national debt increased on his watch, too.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:27 AMCopy HTML

-    $13,193,863,000,000.00 national debt
-$109,552,326,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-$122,746,189,000,000.00 
Spending Can Be Cut

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/16/2010 7:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Yazmine88 (07/15/2010 12:03 PM)

 Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh.  You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual.

Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able.  

  Want to bet? I'm serious. This could be a money maker for me.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/16/2010 7:47 PMCopy HTML

-    $13,197,360,000,000.00 national debt
-$109,563,639,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-$122,760,999,000,000.00 
Spending Can Be Cut

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 4:47 PMCopy HTML

-    $13,201,160,000,000.00 national debt
-$109,575,935,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-$122,777,095,000,000.00 
Spending Can Be Cut

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 6:44 PMCopy HTML

Spending Can Be Cut

I like just about everything Veronique de Rugy writes - and have for years.  Check out some of her articles about the Bush administration:

http://www.cato.org/people/rugy.html

Bush’s Achilles’ Heel: Governement Spending Is Out of Control,

Hey, Big Spender,

The Mother of All Big Spenders: Bush spends like Carter and panders like Clinton.,

You may remember some of these - I posted them on the old MSN forums, when I bashed the Bush administration for fiscal irresponsibility.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:02 PMCopy HTML

Excellent, thank you.  It's a shame all our stuff on old msn was nuked into oblivion.  Granted, 95% of it was crap just like here but the other 5% made the difference.

It truly awe inspiring that some folks here think the increased federal spending of the last 2 years will end... voluntarily.  I mean, that sort naivety is just so precious!

My favorite spat so far is the Clinton meme.  

Starry eyed fawners:  Clinton reduced the deficit and started paying off the national debt!!!

Me:  Well, that sounds nice but the national debt still went up, didn't it?  So he didn't really start paying off the national debt, did he?

SEF:  It's all bush's fault!!!

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:14 PMCopy HTML

In defense of the Clinton Administration - it truly demonstrated that a strongly divided government (after 1994 Congress was strongly Republican - and Clinton was a strong Democratic President) provided a balance of power that resulted in more fiscal responsibility than we saw before or after (in the past 40 years, anyway).

While the debt went up every year, in the best year it was reduced to an increase of "only" $18 billion between the end of FY 1999 and FY 2000.

It now takes only 3.5 days for the debt to rise $18 billion.  Put another way - the debt would have had to rise for 105 years at the best rate under the Clinton Administration to equal the rise in FY 2009.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:18 PMCopy HTML

One would hope that if the feds could get that close to at least a balanced budget, it would be proof enough that it could be done again.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:25 PMCopy HTML

Hay,

It is good to see a fair statement about the Clinton/Gringrich years and their worthwile fiscal accomplishments...all done without dismantling our social safety net.

But frankly it is discouraging to see the position of conservatives toward fiscal policy today.

For the most part, conservatives who were silent during the incredible Bush spending years suddenly condemn spending as if it only happened last year. That is disingenious at best.

But worse is that everyone remotely familiar with the federal budget knows that there is simply not enough elective spending cuts possible to balance the budget. Without a combination of spending reductions and tax increases, the budget simply cannot be balanced.

Now some would say it still could if we ended Medicare, medicaid and reduced social security greatly. But that is not going to happen...it is not a realistic political possibility.

So we have conservatives wailing about spending but offering little in the way of where they favor specific spending cuts. And then they argue that the Bush tax cuts must all be made permanent, though over a decade those tax reductions would cost the Treasury almost $3 trillion dollars that would be paid for by DEBT.

Sadly, it seems clear that, given the chance to run congress again, Republicans would add far more to the debt and deficit than is now facing the country.

DRJim

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:48 PMCopy HTML

Sadly, you don't seem to get the point that the deficits and resulting debt stem primarily from spending.  Tax cuts do not "cost" the government anything - it is spending that constitutes the cost.

I have explicitly provide you (multiple times) a simple plan - roll back spending across the board to the 2005 budget.  That would be an excellent start.

Clearly you were never around in the MSN forum days when many of us (including alaskaone, FactSmacker (used to be alaskanfree), punkdragon, codify, and many others where highly critical of previous spending irresponsibility.

On the tax side - there is almost no tax cut I wouldn't support.  I hold the view that Federal taxes have been excessive since the income tax amendment was passed.  Long term (100 year view) all of those Federal entitlement programs you hold to be sacred ought to be dramatically reduced if not eliminated.  I realize that isn't going to happen.

However - a slow, steady reversal of the draconian growth of the Federal government is possible.  It took from 1913 to now to get this bad - reducing the Federal spending share of GDP by 1% per year over the next 100 years ought not be traumatic to the economy or individuals.  Since the current share is 25.4%, that would mean next year it would need to be 25.1% of GDP (about what Obama's OMB estimates it will be), then the next year 24.8% (Obama's estimate for 2012 is 23.2% of GDP).

After 10 years the share would be 22.7%, after 20 it would be 20.3%, and after 30 it would be 18.2% - about what it was under Clinton for FY 2000 and FY 2001.

In 50 years, it would be 14.6% of GDP, and in 100 years 8.4% of GDP.  Modest changes over long periods of time are manageable.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:51 PMCopy HTML

What most people want is for things tomorrow to be pretty much like today.  When you start yanking the rug out from under everyone the way george w. obama has done, it gives us all the heeby jeebies.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:02 PMCopy HTML

Hay,

May i respectfully suggest your ideas on taxation are absolutely not going to happen...and nor should they...ever.

Seriously...we will not go back to the 2005 budget. And if you think that possible then show me the candidates in office or running for office advocating ending Medicare entirely...cutting defense by 40%, ending all federal regulatory responsibility, ending highway funding...show me those canddiates who are willing to run for election on your program.

So given that just is never gonna happen...what is your real plan, not your insanity plan...but your plan that will actually be possible to attain?

Let me guess, you do not have anything, any plan that could actually work...except cut taxes, cut taxes, and cut taxes. Like the parrot that masters a single phrase you master a single concept for all occasions.

And you do so seemingly ignorant that tax cuts will reduce revenue anticipated by the treasury and end up being paid for by debt...which essentically means I have to pay for the richest Americans to get a tax cut.

Honest to God Hay...get a grip...your plan is insanity and impossible and your backup plan, cut taxes, will make the deficit skyrocket.

Let's just hope those those like you never hold any actual responsibility over anything remotely connected to budgeting and planning.

DRJim

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:06 PMCopy HTML

 This is the exact problem with the republican stance on financial matters...they don't have real-world solutions.  Their solution is to cut taxes (revenue) LOL...It makes zero sense and it's partly why were are in the dumper today.

We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:16 PMCopy HTML

The solution to getting out of debt is to either increase your income which you then use to pay down the debt or you decrease your spending and use the savings to pay down the debt.

It has been demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that the federal government is incapable of controlling its spending.  No amount of taxation will ever satisfy it's lusts.

Want to increase taxes to 100% on everyone, every where?  It will not be enough to satisfy the federal government.  It is very much like a black hole, the more you give it, the more it wants.

It is people like yourselves who have put us 13.2 trillion dollars in the hole.  People exactly like you. I hope you're proud.  I hope, when you look your children in the eye... forget it.  I'm wasting my time and it's a sunny day.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:27 PMCopy HTML

May i respectfully suggest your ideas on taxation are absolutely not going to happen...and nor should they...ever.

Really, jim? Never?  Before you make such a sweeping statement, perhaps you ought to ask me what my ideas on taxation are.  What did you think they were when you wrote those absurd words?

Seriously...we will not go back to the 2005 budget. And if you think that possible then show me the candidates in office or running for office advocating ending Medicare entirely...cutting defense by 40%, ending all federal regulatory responsibility, ending highway funding...show me those canddiates who are willing to run for election on your program.

Medicare was entirely ended in 2005?  That's news to everyone else, jim.  You better check the percentages you are citing - the cuts to return to the 2005 budget aren't that dramatic for most major programs.

So given that just is never gonna happen...what is your real plan, not your insanity plan...but your plan that will actually be possible to attain?

Having problems reading, jim?  Your irrational response neglected this part of that post:

"However - a slow, steady reversal of the draconian growth of the Federal government is possible.  It took from 1913 to now to get this bad - reducing the Federal spending share of GDP by 1% per year over the next 100 years ought not be traumatic to the economy or individuals.  Since the current share is 25.4%, that would mean next year it would need to be 25.1% of GDP (about what Obama's OMB estimates it will be), then the next year 24.8% (Obama's estimate for 2012 is 23.2% of GDP).

After 10 years the share would be 22.7%, after 20 it would be 20.3%, and after 30 it would be 18.2% - about what it was under Clinton for FY 2000 and FY 2001.

In 50 years, it would be 14.6% of GDP, and in 100 years 8.4% of GDP.  Modest changes over long periods of time are manageable."

The annual cuts are less than what President Obama is calling for.

And you do so seemingly ignorant that tax cuts will reduce revenue anticipated by the treasury and end up being paid for by debt...which essentically means I have to pay for the richest Americans to get a tax cut.

I've never stated that cutting taxes would not reduce revenue.  I simply stated that it is uncontrolled Federal spending that is the root cause of all deficits and subsequent debt.

As an extreme example - if there is zero spending, then zero taxes are required to achieve a balanced budget.

Certainly as large as the American economy is, the Federal government ought to be able to function on 15% of GDP spending or less.  Federal revenue right now would be sufficient if that were the case.

Tax cuts are never spending programs - and are therefore never "paid for".  Nor are tax cuts "borrowed for".  If Federal revenue is reduced, then it is incumbent upon Congress and the Administration to reduce spending.

Simply put - one needs not borrow if one does not spend in the first place.

Let's just hope those those like you never hold any actual responsibility over anything remotely connected to budgeting and planning.

I'm sure you wouldn't like the result - but hardworking, productive income producing Americans would certainly appreciate the efficiency of a government if I were in charge of budgeting and planning (and Congress and the President actually followed those budgets and plans) for the next few decades.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 9:31 PMCopy HTML

DrJim wont be happy until all resources are pooled by an omnipotent leader and well a few million dead. Oh well such is life. Ho hum.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 10:22 PMCopy HTML

Codify,

I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly?

DRJim

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/17/2010 10:24 PMCopy HTML

Hay,

let's try a simplier approach...

If our budget continues to reflect a deficit and a debt....and we then make permanent the Bush tax cuts on the richest Americans....given that very possible scenario....will the deficit and debt increase?

DRJim

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/18/2010 4:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 5:24 PM)

Hay,

let's try a simplier approach...

If our budget continues to reflect a deficit and a debt....and we then make permanent the Bush tax cuts on the richest Americans....given that very possible scenario....will the deficit and debt increase?

Under the policies of Obama and the Democrats?  Absolutely!  The deficit and debt are on a death spiral trajectory.

However - what you didn't ask is "if the Bush tax cuts are repealed ... will the deficit and debt increase?"

If you had, the answer would have also been:

Under the policies of Obama and the Democrats?  Absolutely!  The deficit and debt are on a death spiral trajectory.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:06 AMCopy HTML

Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 2:22 PM)

Codify,

I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly?

That means I view you as being slightly on the pragmatic side.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:07 AMCopy HTML

-    $13,203,392,000,000.00 national debt
-$109,583,155,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-$122,786,547,000,000.00 
Spending Can Be Cut

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 1:22 PM)

Codify,

I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly?

He was referring, clearly and plainly, to all of the famous tyrants of the 20th century.  They had a common denominator; they all thought centralized power was groovy and that under their oh-so-very-much-wiser-than-thou leadership, life would be bread and honey for everyone.

Funny it never worked out that way for any of them and many, many millions died.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

alaskaone
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Date Posted：05/26/2010 4:01 PMCopy HTML AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT TOPS $13,000,000,000,000; DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975; US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3% None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure. Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
FactSmacker	Share to: #271
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：01/27/2010 1:38 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 7:23 AMCopy HTML Bush was wrong. Obama is trying to make him look like a piker.
alaskaone	Share to: #272
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 7:37 AMCopy HTML Bush & republicrats: $4.857 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats: $6.474 trillion in only 4 years. Now, if mr obama somehow manages to get himself re-elected and if the tea party movement turns out to be much ado about nothing then it is pretty safe to assume federal spending will continue without meaningful retard. In fact, I would bet the rent money federal spending will continue to increase. However, for the purpose of illustration lets assume federal spending continues exactly as it has been for the last 1 year and 7 months. By the time obama leaves he and the republicrats will have increased the national debt by $12.948 trillion dollars. Bush and republicrats: $4.847 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats: $12.948 trillion in 8 years. Add that 12.948 trillion to the 10.627 trillion they started with gives us a projection of $23.575 trillion dollar national debt by 2018. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
FactSmacker	Share to: #273
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：01/27/2010 1:38 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 8:09 AMCopy HTML Unfunded liabilities are a politicians best friend. My worst nightmare. How anybody can think that is responsible, I just cannot fathom. I think the bastards just count on the fact that at least 99% of the population just isn't paying attention. When the other 1% of us even bring it up, we get either blank, uncomprehending stares or treated like conspiracy nuts. It makes me feel like this guy. Not the bank robbery in the video, just the lyrics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R96CTtFtyr0 Not my usual musical fare, but apropos.
Doe_Eyes	Share to: #274
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：03/19/2009 4:12 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 4:32 PMCopy HTML Hey Alaska, I saw several of those signs around my area.....where road and waterworks construction and replacement were taking place. The signs were small and basically insignificant, but the jobs the stimulus provided are noted by those signs as was the construction going on. What wasn't noted was the jobs saved or created by those construction jobs in the industries that are supportive of such operations, like the blacktop businesses, the pipe and drainage manufacturers, the aggregate manufacturers....all those jobs, all those people at work and just a few insignificant signs showing the huge significance of it to our area. Stimulus money at work, for America, for US! The time is always right to do what is right.
mrscorie	Share to: #275
Rank：TAE Member Score：8065 Posts：8039 From：USA Register：08/09/2008 12:01 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 5:06 PMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (07/15/2010 12:50 AM) Bush & republicrats added $4.857 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats added $2.559 trillion in 1 year, 7 months. If current spending rate continues unaccelerated then... Bush & republicrats: $4.857 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats: $6.474 trillion in only 4 years. 687 Billion dollars is added to the deficit every year because of the Bush tax cuts. Should we let them expire? Is that 2.559 what is added or is that the total spending of the government? To my knowledge the Budget deficit is 1.6 trillion. end the Bush tax cuts end the wars bring back our manufacturing industry reform entitlements I AM REAL!!! I AM REAL!!!!
Yazmine88	Share to: #276
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：07/16/2008 6:51 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/15/2010 6:03 PMCopy HTML Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh. You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual. Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able. We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.
alaskaone	Share to: #277
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:22 AMCopy HTML Reply to mrscorie (07/15/2010 8:06 AM) Reply to alaskaone (07/15/2010 12:50 AM) Bush & republicrats added $4.857 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats added $2.559 trillion in 1 year, 7 months. If current spending rate continues unaccelerated then... Bush & republicrats: $4.857 trillion in 8 years. Obama & republicrats: $6.474 trillion in only 4 years. 687 Billion dollars is added to the deficit every year because of the Bush tax cuts. Should we let them expire? Here's a radical idea; reduce spending. I know! Call me, "Mr. Whacky!" Is that 2.559 what is added or is that the total spending of the government? To my knowledge the Budget deficit is 1.6 trillion. $2.559 trillion is the amount of money added to the national debt in the last 1 year & 7 months according to the budget clock. end the Bush tax cuts. Reduce spending! end the wars Now you're cooking with gas! bring back our manufacturing industry What? At gun point? Stop taxing the shit out of business and they'll come back on their own. reform entitlements Halleluja, praise god and pass the peanuts! She has seen the light! Welcome to the Dark Side, my dear! Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #278
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:24 AMCopy HTML Reply to Yazmine88 (07/15/2010 9:03 AM) Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh. You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual. Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able. Really. Care to point out, Yaz, any time in recent history... say the last 50 years... that the federal government has reduced spending. Don't bother with the clinton meme. The national debt increased on his watch, too. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #279
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/16/2010 12:27 AMCopy HTML - $13,193,863,000,000.00 national debt -$109,552,326,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -$122,746,189,000,000.00 Spending Can Be Cut Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
FactSmacker	Share to: #280
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：01/27/2010 1:38 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/16/2010 7:11 AMCopy HTML Reply to Yazmine88 (07/15/2010 12:03 PM) Of course the spending rate will not continue....The bailouts are over, duh. You are comparing apples and oranges, as usual. Corie, your points are right-on, practical and do-able. Want to bet? I'm serious. This could be a money maker for me.
alaskaone	Share to: #281
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/16/2010 7:47 PMCopy HTML - $13,197,360,000,000.00 national debt -$109,563,639,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -$122,760,999,000,000.00 Spending Can Be Cut Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #282
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 4:47 PMCopy HTML - $13,201,160,000,000.00 national debt -$109,575,935,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -$122,777,095,000,000.00 Spending Can Be Cut Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian	Share to: #283
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 6:44 PMCopy HTML Spending Can Be Cut I like just about everything Veronique de Rugy writes - and have for years. Check out some of her articles about the Bush administration: http://www.cato.org/people/rugy.html Bush’s Achilles’ Heel: Governement Spending Is Out of Control, Hey, Big Spender, The Mother of All Big Spenders: Bush spends like Carter and panders like Clinton., You may remember some of these - I posted them on the old MSN forums, when I bashed the Bush administration for fiscal irresponsibility. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone	Share to: #284
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:02 PMCopy HTML Excellent, thank you. It's a shame all our stuff on old msn was nuked into oblivion. Granted, 95% of it was crap just like here but the other 5% made the difference. It truly awe inspiring that some folks here think the increased federal spending of the last 2 years will end... voluntarily. I mean, that sort naivety is just so precious! My favorite spat so far is the Clinton meme. Starry eyed fawners: Clinton reduced the deficit and started paying off the national debt!!! Me: Well, that sounds nice but the national debt still went up, didn't it? So he didn't really start paying off the national debt, did he? SEF: It's all bush's fault!!! Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian	Share to: #285
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:14 PMCopy HTML In defense of the Clinton Administration - it truly demonstrated that a strongly divided government (after 1994 Congress was strongly Republican - and Clinton was a strong Democratic President) provided a balance of power that resulted in more fiscal responsibility than we saw before or after (in the past 40 years, anyway). While the debt went up every year, in the best year it was reduced to an increase of "only" $18 billion between the end of FY 1999 and FY 2000. It now takes only 3.5 days for the debt to rise $18 billion. Put another way - the debt would have had to rise for 105 years at the best rate under the Clinton Administration to equal the rise in FY 2009. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone	Share to: #286
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:18 PMCopy HTML One would hope that if the feds could get that close to at least a balanced budget, it would be proof enough that it could be done again. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
docjim	Share to: #287
Rank：TAE Member Score：2911 Posts：2687 From：USA Register：02/18/2009 8:23 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:25 PMCopy HTML Hay, It is good to see a fair statement about the Clinton/Gringrich years and their worthwile fiscal accomplishments...all done without dismantling our social safety net. But frankly it is discouraging to see the position of conservatives toward fiscal policy today. For the most part, conservatives who were silent during the incredible Bush spending years suddenly condemn spending as if it only happened last year. That is disingenious at best. But worse is that everyone remotely familiar with the federal budget knows that there is simply not enough elective spending cuts possible to balance the budget. Without a combination of spending reductions and tax increases, the budget simply cannot be balanced. Now some would say it still could if we ended Medicare, medicaid and reduced social security greatly. But that is not going to happen...it is not a realistic political possibility. So we have conservatives wailing about spending but offering little in the way of where they favor specific spending cuts. And then they argue that the Bush tax cuts must all be made permanent, though over a decade those tax reductions would cost the Treasury almost $3 trillion dollars that would be paid for by DEBT. Sadly, it seems clear that, given the chance to run congress again, Republicans would add far more to the debt and deficit than is now facing the country. DRJim
Hayekian	Share to: #288
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:48 PMCopy HTML Sadly, you don't seem to get the point that the deficits and resulting debt stem primarily from spending. Tax cuts do not "cost" the government anything - it is spending that constitutes the cost. I have explicitly provide you (multiple times) a simple plan - roll back spending across the board to the 2005 budget. That would be an excellent start. Clearly you were never around in the MSN forum days when many of us (including alaskaone, FactSmacker (used to be alaskanfree), punkdragon, codify, and many others where highly critical of previous spending irresponsibility. On the tax side - there is almost no tax cut I wouldn't support. I hold the view that Federal taxes have been excessive since the income tax amendment was passed. Long term (100 year view) all of those Federal entitlement programs you hold to be sacred ought to be dramatically reduced if not eliminated. I realize that isn't going to happen. However - a slow, steady reversal of the draconian growth of the Federal government is possible. It took from 1913 to now to get this bad - reducing the Federal spending share of GDP by 1% per year over the next 100 years ought not be traumatic to the economy or individuals. Since the current share is 25.4%, that would mean next year it would need to be 25.1% of GDP (about what Obama's OMB estimates it will be), then the next year 24.8% (Obama's estimate for 2012 is 23.2% of GDP). After 10 years the share would be 22.7%, after 20 it would be 20.3%, and after 30 it would be 18.2% - about what it was under Clinton for FY 2000 and FY 2001. In 50 years, it would be 14.6% of GDP, and in 100 years 8.4% of GDP. Modest changes over long periods of time are manageable. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone	Share to: #289
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 7:51 PMCopy HTML What most people want is for things tomorrow to be pretty much like today. When you start yanking the rug out from under everyone the way george w. obama has done, it gives us all the heeby jeebies. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
docjim	Share to: #290
Rank：TAE Member Score：2911 Posts：2687 From：USA Register：02/18/2009 8:23 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:02 PMCopy HTML Hay, May i respectfully suggest your ideas on taxation are absolutely not going to happen...and nor should they...ever. Seriously...we will not go back to the 2005 budget. And if you think that possible then show me the candidates in office or running for office advocating ending Medicare entirely...cutting defense by 40%, ending all federal regulatory responsibility, ending highway funding...show me those canddiates who are willing to run for election on your program. So given that just is never gonna happen...what is your real plan, not your insanity plan...but your plan that will actually be possible to attain? Let me guess, you do not have anything, any plan that could actually work...except cut taxes, cut taxes, and cut taxes. Like the parrot that masters a single phrase you master a single concept for all occasions. And you do so seemingly ignorant that tax cuts will reduce revenue anticipated by the treasury and end up being paid for by debt...which essentically means I have to pay for the richest Americans to get a tax cut. Honest to God Hay...get a grip...your plan is insanity and impossible and your backup plan, cut taxes, will make the deficit skyrocket. Let's just hope those those like you never hold any actual responsibility over anything remotely connected to budgeting and planning. DRJim
Yazmine88	Share to: #291
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：07/16/2008 6:51 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:06 PMCopy HTML This is the exact problem with the republican stance on financial matters...they don't have real-world solutions. Their solution is to cut taxes (revenue) LOL...It makes zero sense and it's partly why were are in the dumper today. We've all known people like Trump...and Trumpie - that creep you can never trust because they are always looking for an angle, a way to cheat people out of their money. A way to reneg on a contract, to not pay in full......they are con artists. Trump does this kind of thing because he believes that because he's very wealthy, the rules of decency do not apply to him and of course, he can threaten to sue anyone. When poor people act like Trump - well they do it because they are scammers. They have no ethics in business or in life.
alaskaone	Share to: #292
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:16 PMCopy HTML The solution to getting out of debt is to either increase your income which you then use to pay down the debt or you decrease your spending and use the savings to pay down the debt. It has been demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that the federal government is incapable of controlling its spending. No amount of taxation will ever satisfy it's lusts. Want to increase taxes to 100% on everyone, every where? It will not be enough to satisfy the federal government. It is very much like a black hole, the more you give it, the more it wants. It is people like yourselves who have put us 13.2 trillion dollars in the hole. People exactly like you. I hope you're proud. I hope, when you look your children in the eye... forget it. I'm wasting my time and it's a sunny day. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian	Share to: #293
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 8:27 PMCopy HTML May i respectfully suggest your ideas on taxation are absolutely not going to happen...and nor should they...ever. Really, jim? Never? Before you make such a sweeping statement, perhaps you ought to ask me what my ideas on taxation are. What did you think they were when you wrote those absurd words? Seriously...we will not go back to the 2005 budget. And if you think that possible then show me the candidates in office or running for office advocating ending Medicare entirely...cutting defense by 40%, ending all federal regulatory responsibility, ending highway funding...show me those canddiates who are willing to run for election on your program. Medicare was entirely ended in 2005? That's news to everyone else, jim. You better check the percentages you are citing - the cuts to return to the 2005 budget aren't that dramatic for most major programs. So given that just is never gonna happen...what is your real plan, not your insanity plan...but your plan that will actually be possible to attain? Having problems reading, jim? Your irrational response neglected this part of that post: "However - a slow, steady reversal of the draconian growth of the Federal government is possible. It took from 1913 to now to get this bad - reducing the Federal spending share of GDP by 1% per year over the next 100 years ought not be traumatic to the economy or individuals. Since the current share is 25.4%, that would mean next year it would need to be 25.1% of GDP (about what Obama's OMB estimates it will be), then the next year 24.8% (Obama's estimate for 2012 is 23.2% of GDP). After 10 years the share would be 22.7%, after 20 it would be 20.3%, and after 30 it would be 18.2% - about what it was under Clinton for FY 2000 and FY 2001. In 50 years, it would be 14.6% of GDP, and in 100 years 8.4% of GDP. Modest changes over long periods of time are manageable." The annual cuts are less than what President Obama is calling for. And you do so seemingly ignorant that tax cuts will reduce revenue anticipated by the treasury and end up being paid for by debt...which essentically means I have to pay for the richest Americans to get a tax cut. I've never stated that cutting taxes would not reduce revenue. I simply stated that it is uncontrolled Federal spending that is the root cause of all deficits and subsequent debt. As an extreme example - if there is zero spending, then zero taxes are required to achieve a balanced budget. Certainly as large as the American economy is, the Federal government ought to be able to function on 15% of GDP spending or less. Federal revenue right now would be sufficient if that were the case. Tax cuts are never spending programs - and are therefore never "paid for". Nor are tax cuts "borrowed for". If Federal revenue is reduced, then it is incumbent upon Congress and the Administration to reduce spending. Simply put - one needs not borrow if one does not spend in the first place. Let's just hope those those like you never hold any actual responsibility over anything remotely connected to budgeting and planning. I'm sure you wouldn't like the result - but hardworking, productive income producing Americans would certainly appreciate the efficiency of a government if I were in charge of budgeting and planning (and Congress and the President actually followed those budgets and plans) for the next few decades. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
codify	Share to: #294
Rank：TAE Member Score：8664 Posts：7682 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 5:24 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 9:31 PMCopy HTML DrJim wont be happy until all resources are pooled by an omnipotent leader and well a few million dead. Oh well such is life. Ho hum.
docjim	Share to: #295
Rank：TAE Member Score：2911 Posts：2687 From：USA Register：02/18/2009 8:23 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 10:22 PMCopy HTML Codify, I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly? DRJim
docjim	Share to: #296
Rank：TAE Member Score：2911 Posts：2687 From：USA Register：02/18/2009 8:23 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/17/2010 10:24 PMCopy HTML Hay, let's try a simplier approach... If our budget continues to reflect a deficit and a debt....and we then make permanent the Bush tax cuts on the richest Americans....given that very possible scenario....will the deficit and debt increase? DRJim
Hayekian	Share to: #297
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/18/2010 4:59 AMCopy HTML Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 5:24 PM) Hay, let's try a simplier approach... If our budget continues to reflect a deficit and a debt....and we then make permanent the Bush tax cuts on the richest Americans....given that very possible scenario....will the deficit and debt increase? Under the policies of Obama and the Democrats? Absolutely! The deficit and debt are on a death spiral trajectory. However - what you didn't ask is "if the Bush tax cuts are repealed ... will the deficit and debt increase?" If you had, the answer would have also been: Under the policies of Obama and the Democrats? Absolutely! The deficit and debt are on a death spiral trajectory. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
codify	Share to: #298
Rank：TAE Member Score：8664 Posts：7682 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 5:24 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:06 AMCopy HTML Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 2:22 PM) Codify, I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly? That means I view you as being slightly on the pragmatic side.
alaskaone	Share to: #299
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:07 AMCopy HTML - $13,203,392,000,000.00 national debt -$109,583,155,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -$122,786,547,000,000.00 Spending Can Be Cut Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #300
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：07/18/2010 5:11 AMCopy HTML Reply to docjim (07/17/2010 1:22 PM) Codify, I missed the part where you explained "a few million dead"...what does that mean exactly? He was referring, clearly and plainly, to all of the famous tyrants of the 20th century. They had a common denominator; they all thought centralized power was groovy and that under their oh-so-very-much-wiser-than-thou leadership, life would be bread and honey for everyone. Funny it never worked out that way for any of them and many, many millions died. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken