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alaskaone
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Date Posted:05/26/2010 4:01 PMCopy HTML

AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
TOPS $13,000,000,000,000;
DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975;
US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3%


None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure.  Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Hayekian Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #181
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Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted:06/22/2010 2:39 AMCopy HTML

That is some very strange "accounting" on the part of CBPP - and the fundamental reasoning is flawed, as any policies initiated under Bush that is continued by Obama and the Democratic controlled congress are now owned by Obama and the Democrats.  They have the power to do whatever they want.
Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #182
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Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted:06/22/2010 2:51 AMCopy HTML

The passage of obamacare is proof enough of that.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
nofencesfacing Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #183
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Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted:06/22/2010 3:06 AMCopy HTML

alaskaone

Did you ever figure out how if the government is borrowing money that consumers and businesses are hoarding would take money out of the economy?  If the economy is not using the money and that is causing the depression what is so bad about the government using the money to “prime the pump” and get the economy going and government revenues up so the debt can be paid back? 

 

That has to be better the having the economy and revenues crash at the same time as demands for government services increase.  Just think what the debt would be if we followed your advice.  Would it be $15 trillion or $20 trillion or $25 trillion by now?

 

If we do not get the economy going soon we will be headed towards deflation and a depression.  Public and private debt only grew at 3.4% in the forth quarter of 2009.  That is the smallest growth in almost 50 years.  The consumer price index only increased by 0.6% the first quarter of this year.  That is the smallest increase in over 50 years.  People will cut back spending even more knowing that the more they delay the more they can buy.  We may not get out of the Republicans global economic meltdown anytime soon.

 

The article goes on to say people are moving there investing to bonds and preferred stocks.  That sure does sound like people are limiting what they put into the economy.  Again if the money is not in the economy how is having the government put the money back into the economy taking money out of the market?

 

It seems you theory goes down the drain in the same way you best said it. The spending of WWII did not get us out of the Great Depression because some people thought the depression would return after the war.  But those people were wrong.

 

I like the way you have the total debt now.  It would be nice if you could show what part of the $109 trillion needs to be added to the $13 trillion to show how much Bush added to the national debt.  My numbers just show that Bush added over $20 trillion.  How much more it is would be nice to know.  We could bring that up the next time someone wants us to vote for a Republican.

alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #184
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Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted:06/22/2010 3:23 AMCopy HTML

NFF,

There are so many profound, gigantic errors in what you wrote, I'm loathe even to tackle one... mostly because it will be a big, fat waste of time.  Keynesians ideologists are irrational and arguing with irrational people is usually a waste of time.

Nevertheless, lets take one sentence and start there.

Did you ever figure out how if the government is borrowing money that consumers and businesses are hoarding would take money out of the economy?

Consumers and businesses 'hoarding'?  What do you think, every business has a vault and every individual stuffs their mattress with cash?  The entire notion is so blatantly false... only a keynesian could believe it.

Secondly, federal borrowing from abroad and from future generations... it's a sign of too much spending.  Each dollar the federal government takes from us is a dollar that is, for the most part, flushed down the toilet... meaning it is diverted from productive use to unproductive and more often than not, wasteful use.

I don't really care if people are foolish enough to loan the feds money.  That's on them, they're adults and presumably are aware of the risks of lending.  But when the feds start borrowing so much that they have no intention of repaying within a generation... then it becomes obscene.  It's immoral and unethical and it has got to stop.
Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #185
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Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted:06/22/2010 3:50 AMCopy HTML

Blaming too much spending on tax cuts is, in my opinion, illogical.

Yet, you want to blame the stimulus for much of the problem and much of the stimulus package was actually tax cuts for individuals and small businesses.  Don't you want to give credit where credit is due?

  • Providing $288 billion in tax cuts and benefits for millions of working families and businesses

    http://www.recovery.gov/About/Pages/The_Act.aspx

    as any policies initiated under Bush that is continued by Obama and the Democratic controlled congress are now owned by Obama and the Democrats.

    Aw, come on Hay, you know that they cannot just stop funding certain things like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would risk the lives of our military there.  They also cannot take back the tax breaks that the Bush administration gave to big business and the wealthiest of our citizens.  It seems that the economic downturn, caused by policies put in place before Obama took office, caused major loss of revenue in the form of taxes.  It's not Obama's yet, but his time is coming......I know you just can't wait.
  • The time is always right to do what is right.
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #186
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:03 AMCopy HTML

    Reply to Doe_Eyes (06/21/2010 6:50 PM)

    Blaming too much spending on tax cuts is, in my opinion, illogical.

    Yet, you want to blame the stimulus for much of the problem and much of the stimulus package was actually tax cuts for individuals and small businesses.  Don't you want to give credit where credit is due?

  • Providing $288 billion in tax cuts and benefits for millions of working families and businesses

    http://www.recovery.gov/About/Pages/The_Act.aspx

    TARP and stimulus, Doe, not just stimulus.  I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that keynesian economic theories are to blame here.  Both bush and obama are keynesians.  As for these alleged tax cuts, even if they are not rendered moot by tax increases in other formats, none of them will be of any influence until next April 15th.  What good is a slightly larger tax refund once a year if I have to pay more than the refund in taxes on gas, increases in my health insurance premiums, and all the other myriad taxes the republicrats have slipped in on the sly?

    TARP and Stimulus, however, are merely boils on an already cancerous mass.

    as any policies initiated under Bush that is continued by Obama and the Democratic controlled congress are now owned by Obama and the Democrats.

    Aw, come on Hay, you know that they cannot just stop funding certain things like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would risk the lives of our military there. 

    Withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan would save American lives as well as Afghani and Iraqi lives... not to mention wind down the expense.

    They also cannot take back the tax breaks that the Bush administration gave to big business and the wealthiest of our citizens. 
    Letting people keep their own money cannot logically be considered an expense to the US government.

    It seems that the economic downturn, caused by policies put in place before Obama took office, caused major loss of revenue in the form of taxes.  It's not Obama's yet, but his time is coming......I know you just can't wait.
    The 'economic downturn' was actually the bursting of a 70+ year housing bubble.  That was neither bush nor obama's fault although congress could have taken action during any of the 70+ years the bubble was inflating.
  • Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    nofencesfacing Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #187
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:10 AMCopy HTML

    alaskaone

    Consumers and businesses 'hoarding'?  What do you think, every business has a vault and every individual stuffs their mattress with cash?  The entire notion is so blatantly false... only a keynesian could believe it.

     

    Consumers and businesses have stopped spending.  That is the reason we have a recession.  How did you miss that?

     

    Secondly, federal borrowing from abroad and from future generations…

     

    If we are borrowing from abroad then how are we taking money out of our system?  If we get the economy going again that is when we can pay the money back – see Clinton and Bush promise to pay off the national debt in the 00’s. 

     

    Of course we cannot vote for Republicans who promise to pay off the national debt, cut taxes, fix the problem with Social Security and will not do any nation building.

     

    I don't really care if people are foolish enough to loan the feds money.

     

    If consumers and businesses invest their money in government bonds that is taking money out of the system.   That is unless the government spends it.  There goes your claim that the government is taking money out of the market.  In fact the government is providing a way to put the money back into the system.

     

    What risk is investing in the government?  You know they will pay you back.  With stock, if there is a depression, you will lose money – see the $70 trillion loss under Bush.

     

    Oh you never explained your – The WWII spending did not end the Great Depression because some people thought the depression would return after the war.  But those people were wrong, - They were wrong because the spending of WWII ended the Great Depression.

     

    Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #188
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:10 AMCopy HTML

    TARP and stimulus, Doe, not just stimulus.  I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that keynesian economic theories are to blame here.  Both bush and obama are keynesians

    TARP (which I was against) is not the same as the stimulus.  The stimulus is helping the AMERICAN people, the AMERICAN infrastructure where as the TARP was bailing out big business, which would never have been able to get by with the crap they did, if not for the deregulation of them by the previous administrations.  There was no transparency, no accountability, absolutely nothing to insure that they would not let their greed take over and destroy the stock market.  Something we are seeing right now with another industry, oil.   Bush and Obama are like night and day, and all you can see is "keynesian".   
    The time is always right to do what is right.
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #189
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:24 AMCopy HTML

    Reply to Doe_Eyes (06/21/2010 7:10 PM)

    TARP and stimulus, Doe, not just stimulus.  I don't know how to make it any more clear to you that keynesian economic theories are to blame here.  Both bush and obama are keynesians

    TARP (which I was against) is not the same as the stimulus. 
    TARP was a massive mis-use of tax money as is stimulus.  If you were against TARP then you should also be against stimulus because they are the same thing... just different masters.

    The stimulus is helping the AMERICAN people,
    Really?  Who, exactly?  That casino that got what?  $40 million?  The pork barrel projects for various cities across the nation?  Didn't someone do the math and discover that every one of these temporary makework jobs cost tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars each?

    the AMERICAN infrastructure
    You mean that same infrastructure our gas taxes were supposed to be maintaining?

    where as the TARP was bailing out big business, which would never have been able to get by with the crap they did, if not for the deregulation of them by the previous administrations.
    Actually, they did nothing illegal and, in fact, did shady things that were required of them by law.  

    There was no transparency, no accountability, absolutely nothing to insure that they would not let their greed take over and destroy the stock market.  Something we are seeing right now with another industry, oil.   Bush and Obama are like night and day, and all you can see is "keynesian.
    Because keynesianism is what they share in common... the idea that the federal government is wise enough, honorable enough and effective enough to command the entire US economy from the top down.

    Let me ask you this;  if you have any savings, would you turn it over to the federal government to manage and spend on your behalf?

    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #190
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:28 AMCopy HTML

    I do it every paycheck.  It's called FICA.

    The time is always right to do what is right.
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #191
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 4:57 AMCopy HTML

    FICA is your savings?

    You do understand that you have no proprietary claim upon ss or medicare, don't you?  If the feds decide no benefits this month or this year... you have no legal recourse.

    You also have no choice about contribution.  My question was would you voluntarily entrust your personal savings... no... no, lets take this analogy all the way.  Would you entrust your entire wage to the federal government to spend on your behalf?
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #192
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 5:32 AMCopy HTML

    Alaska, I don't have to entrust them with my whole paycheck, so that's a stupid question.  I do trust that they will make good on my federally insured bank account if something bad should befall the bank.  And, although I don't count on it, I trust them to make sure those who need Social Security when they are old, receive it....moreso than I would any private investment firm.  If SS had been privatized like Bush was trying to do when he was, there would be a lot of people who are getting a SS check now, who wouldn't have.  You see things your way, I see them my way.  I don't think either of us will change the other's mind.
    The time is always right to do what is right.
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #193
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 5:48 AMCopy HTML

    Reply to Doe_Eyes (06/21/2010 8:32 PM)

    Alaska, I don't have to entrust them with my whole paycheck, so that's a stupid question.  I do trust that they will make good on my federally insured bank account if something bad should befall the bank.  And, although I don't count on it, I trust them to make sure those who need Social Security when they are old, receive it....moreso than I would any private investment firm.  If SS had been privatized like Bush was trying to do when he was, there would be a lot of people who are getting a SS check now, who wouldn't have.  You see things your way, I see them my way.  I don't think either of us will change the other's mind.

    Oh, I have faith in your reasoning abilities... and not so much faith in my communication abilities.

    The question isn't really stupid and your answer reveals a lot.  You wouldn't entrust your entire wages to a distant and unintersted authority because there is no way in hell such a set up would work.  The distant authority does not and cannot know what you need, what you want, when it has to happen, etc., etc., etc.

    Entrusting the federal government to handle personal finances in any form is exactly the same thing... just to a lessor degree.

    And really, with the knowledge that SS has no contractual obligation to give anyone, anything, you still trust them more than an investment firm that is under contract?  Even knowing that the federal government is 13.1 trillion dollars in debt?  Even knowing it has nearly 110 trillion dollars in liabilities it has no way to pay for?

    EZ accused me of irrational hatred of the federal government... I'm going to pass that along to you in the form of irrational trust of it.

    Bush's idea of "privatizing' social security was a scam... did you know that?  What he wanted to do was create a forced investment scheme with his buddies as the beneficiaries.  It would have worked much like the retirement system I'm in.... a select number of funds are available for me to "choose" from.  Can you imagine how big a deal it would be for a business to get itself into that 'select' group?

    It was a wretched, corrupt scheme whose only bright point would have been the creation of a contractual obligation between us and our money where none now exists.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    Doe_Eyes Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #194
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 5:57 AMCopy HTML

    You wouldn't entrust your entire wages to a distant and unintersted authority because there is no way in hell such a set up would work.

    Alaska, truth be known, I wouldn't entrust even my husband with my entire wages.  
    The time is always right to do what is right.
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #195
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 6:40 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,116,340,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,218,824,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #196
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/22/2010 9:39 PMCopy HTML

    -    $13,100,513,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,227,600,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.

    I've noticed the national debt total sometimes goes backward for a few hours... that's very encouraging.  Alas, the progress is short lived and soon surges forward again.  Perhaps it goes backward when congress is out of session?
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #197
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/24/2010 1:13 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,104,434,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,243,743,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #198
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/24/2010 4:45 PMCopy HTML

    -    $13,106,228,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,252,838,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/24/2010 10:30 PMCopy HTML

    No response to 187?

    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #200
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/25/2010 3:11 AMCopy HTML

    Sorry, I missed it.


    Reply to nofencesfacing (06/21/2010 7:10 PM)

    alaskaone

    Consumers and businesses 'hoarding'?  What do you think, every business has a vault and every individual stuffs their mattress with cash?  The entire notion is so blatantly false... only a keynesian could believe it.

     

    Consumers and businesses have stopped spending.  That is the reason we have a recession.  How did you miss that?

    Then Alaska must be 100% different from down south because yesterday I was in Anchorage and it was business as usual... downtown mall was full of shoppers as was Fred Meyers.  Perhaps you mean consumers and businesses have slowed down their borrowing?


    Secondly, federal borrowing from abroad and from future generations…

     

    If we are borrowing from abroad then how are we taking money out of our system?  If we get the economy going again that is when we can pay the money back – see Clinton and Bush promise to pay off the national debt in the 00’s. 

    I don't really give a fuck about clinton or bush or obama.  The feds are borrowing and they are borrowing on the hope that they will get more money in the future.  That is exactly as if you borrow more and more money hoping you will get a better job in the future... hoping your children will get better jobs than you have in the future.  It is immoral and unethical... not to mention stupid.

     


    Of course we cannot vote for Republicans who promise to pay off the national debt, cut taxes, fix the problem with Social Security and will not do any nation building.

    The democrats do exactly the same thing.  Not sure why you are having difficulty understanding that.


     

    I don't really care if people are foolish enough to loan the feds money.

     

    If consumers and businesses invest their money in government bonds that is taking money out of the system.   That is unless the government spends it.  There goes your claim that the government is taking money out of the market.  In fact the government is providing a way to put the money back into the system.

    The government consistently 'mal-invests' the money they remove from circulation.  While private individuals and corporations also 'mal-invest', they do so at a far lessor extent and a far, far, far lessor quantity.

     

    What risk is investing in the government?  You know they will pay you back.  With stock, if there is a depression, you will lose money – see the $70 trillion loss under Bush.

    The '$70 trillion loss', if there was such a thing, was fictional wealth.  It never existed anywhere except on paper... that's why they call such things 'bubbles'. 

    While loaning a government money is supposed to be 'safe', government bonds carry risk, too.  Lessor risk due to the power governments have to tax the shit out of people, but risk none the less.  A government may weasel out of its debts in 2 ways; through inflation of the currency or outright default.

     


    Oh you never explained your – The WWII spending did not end the Great Depression because some people thought the depression would return after the war.  But those people were wrong, - They were wrong because the spending of WWII ended the Great Depression.

    War, while sometimes necessary, is at the same time a 'mal-investment'... a net loss in life, equipment and commodities.

    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
    alaskaone Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #201
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/25/2010 3:12 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,107,518,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,258,958,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/25/2010 2:31 PMCopy HTML

    -    $13,108,861,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,265,579000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.

    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/26/2010 5:47 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,110,670,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,274,516,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.

    $110 billion dollars added to the debt in less than 1 month.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/26/2010 12:52 PMCopy HTML

    -    $13,111,515,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,278,673,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.

    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/27/2010 3:59 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,113,307,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,287,511,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/28/2010 3:25 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,116,089,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,301,231,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/29/2010 1:54 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,118,755,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,314,382,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:06/30/2010 2:12 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,117,260,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,328,626,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:07/01/2010 2:10 AMCopy HTML

    Today's national debt and future liabilities figures brought to you by www.letsscrewourownchildren.com

    -    $13,119,604,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,342,631,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.
    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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    Re:-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

    Date Posted:07/02/2010 5:47 AMCopy HTML

    -    $13,134,044,000,000.00 national debt
    -$109,359,799,000,000.00 in future unfunded liabilities.

    Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
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