-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Title: -$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast
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Date Posted：05/26/2010 4:01 PMCopy HTML

AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT
TOPS $13,000,000,000,000;
DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975;
US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3%

None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure. Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/27/2010 2:54 AMCopy HTML

the "stroke of luck"

their president had a stroke and couldn't/didn't "help" everyone with government brand stupid.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/27/2010 6:10 AMCopy HTML

There was pent-up demand that had to wait for businesses to retool after the war.  With the $70 trillion loss under Bush there is no demand.  You are trying to compare apples to a dead horse.
 
What ended the Great Depression if not the outrages spending of WWII?  If we do not get our economy going all is lost.  
 
What mess would there be in Afghanistan and the world if we cut and run now?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/27/2010 10:02 AMCopy HTML

An excerpt from the article Natalie posted shows that cause does not always equal correlation. The deficit spending is being cited as what pulled us out of the depression when there are mulitiple other factors being ignored. The article Natalie posted compared actions from the depression in the 20s to the great depression. Interestingly, it shows a closer link to the actions we are pursuing now to those that acted as a catalyst for the Great Depression. It would seem the model we would want to use is that of the milder depression (i.e. which actions kept us from making the depression worse).

It is true that Hoover eventually blinked and raised taxes in 1932, in an effort to reduce the federal budget deficit. Today’s Keynesians point to this move as proof that reducing deficits is a bad idea in the middle of a depression. Yet an equally valid interpretation is that it’s horrible to hike tax rates in the middle of an economic disaster. After the bold tax cuts pushed through by Andrew Mellon in the 1920s, the top marginal income-tax rate in 1932 stood at 25 percent. The next year, because of Hoover’s desire to close the budget hole, the top income tax rate was 63 percent. Given this extraordinary single-year rate hike, it is no wonder that 1933 was the single worst year in U.S. economic history. (For what it’s worth, the FY 1933 budget deficit was still huge, coming in at 4.5 percent of GDP. Despite the huge rate hikes, federal tax revenues only increased 3.8 percent from FY 1932 to FY 1933.)
.
This context highlights the importance of the 1920–1921 depression. Here the government and Fed did the exact opposite of what the experts now recommend. We have just about the closest thing to a controlled experiment in macroeconomics that one could desire. To repeat, it’s not that the government boosted the budget at a slower rate, or that the Fed provided a tad less liquidity. On the contrary, the government slashed its budget tremendously, and the Fed hiked rates to record highs. ...From FY 1919 to 1920, federal spending was slashed from $18.5 billion to $6.4 billion—a 65 percent reduction in one year. The budget was pushed down the next two years as well, to $3.3 billion in FY 1922.
.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/27/2010 11:04 AMCopy HTML

Back to blaming Bush, I do remember that he had the highest veto rate of any president.  He vetoed everything the congress brought to him.  It could be he was trying to keep spending under control, with a democratic senate.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/27/2010 4:26 PMCopy HTML

Reply to magdalena115 (05/27/2010 1:02 AM)

An excerpt from the article Natalie posted shows that cause does not always equal correlation. The deficit spending is being cited as what pulled us out of the depression when there are mulitiple other factors being ignored. The article Natalie posted compared actions from the depression in the 20s to the great depression. Interestingly, it shows a closer link to the actions we are pursuing now to those that acted as a catalyst for the Great Depression. It would seem the model we would want to use is that of the milder depression (i.e. which actions kept us from making the depression worse).

As with most problems of a vast and complicated nature, it's best to let them sort themselves out on their own rather than meddle.  We've forgotten the 1920 depression because the feds let it sort itself out while the 1929 recession was made into the Great Depression by the federal government trying to 'fix it'.

The idiocy of the federal government from 1929 is beyond anything a rational person could truly believe.  It's one of the reasons I'm so unimpressed by college educations... I mean, the kind of brain washing needed to force me to believe keynesian economics to be anything other than lunacy is not something I want to be subjected to.

I've mentioned one particular example of federal lunacy during the depression it created; the AAA.  FDR decided that the reason farms were failing was because the prices of food was too low.  So what did he do?  He sent swarms of officers into the farmlands where they slaughtered and buried millions of heads of livestock and plowed into the ground thousands acres of crops.

The kind of mind that could think of those atrocities as 'good for the nation' is also the type of mind that could think a world war gets a nation out of an economic depression.  

Only a highly educated mind could wrap it's skull around such ideas and not explode in embarrassment and shame.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 5:46 AMCopy HTML

1920 was not a depression.  If I am standing in line to buy goods that have not been produced then all businesses have to do is retool from making war goods to make consumer goods.  
 
If I just lost my job, my life savings and I standing in line to get a job then I am no longer a consumer.  Then all businesses have to do is layoff workers, cut production and maybe even go out of business.  That is s depression.
 
Government has a different role to do in each case.  Again the outrages spending in WWII got us out of the depression.  We had a negative unemployment rate and record profits.  That ended the Great Depression.  

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 5:51 AMCopy HTML

Dude... there was a depression in 1920.  It lasted a little over a year.  By all economic measurements it was more severe than the recession that began in 1929.

Use your google-fu, young man... "1920 depression"... there are many, many accounts of it from lots of sourses.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 11:58 AMCopy HTML

In general what are the two things that must happen before an economic downturn can be called a depression?  Does the “Depression” of 1920 meet those?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:23 PMCopy HTML

Reviewing the 1920 depression, I find I have misremembered the stats.  My apologies, NFF.  The great depression started with slightly higher GNP and unemployement figures... I remembered them backward.


America's greatest depression fighter was Warren Gamaliel Harding. An Ohio senator when he was elected president in 1920, he followed the much praised Woodrow Wilson— who had brought America into World War I, built up huge federal bureaucracies, imprisoned dissenters, and incurred $25 billion of debt.

Harding inherited Wilson's mess— in particular, a post–World War I depression that was almost as severe, from peak to trough, as the Great Contraction from 1929 to 1933 that FDR would later inherit. The estimated gross national product plunged 24 percent from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million to 4.9 million.
...
With Harding's tax and spending cuts and relatively non-interventionist economic policy, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million— a reported 6.7 percent of the labor force— in 1922. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway. The unemployment rate continued to decline, reaching an extraordinary low of 1.8 percent in 1926. Since then, the unemployment rate has been lower only once in wartime (1944), and never in peacetime.
...
While Harding can hardly be considered a champion of laissez-faire economics (he supported tariffs, after all), the pro-growth policies he implemented are directly responsible for the astonishingly rapid growth in prosperity— and widely shared prosperity— America enjoyed throughout the Roaring 20s.
...
Rather than follow the model of FDR— whose policies raised only Americans' spirits— President-Elect Obama ought to consider the model of Warren G. Harding, whose policies raised Americans' standard of living, and lifted the nation itself out of a depression— before it had a chance to become Great.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9880


Never the less, the 1920 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it vs the 1929 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it remain very instructional.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to nofencesfacing (05/28/2010 6:58 AM)

In general what are the two things that must happen before an economic downturn can be called a depression?  Does the “Depression” of 1920 meet those?

Ok, I'll take a guess.  You can't buy any more nylons and you can't buy any more cigarettes.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:26 PMCopy HTML

Mainly, the difference between a depression and a recession is how long it lasts.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:30 PMCopy HTML

A recession is when your neighbor loses his job.  A depression is when you lose yours.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:32 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (05/28/2010 6:23 AM)

Reviewing the 1920 depression, I find I have misremembered the stats.  My apologies, NFF.  The great depression started with slightly higher GNP and unemployement figures... I remembered them backward.


America's greatest depression fighter was Warren Gamaliel Harding. An Ohio senator when he was elected president in 1920, he followed the much praised Woodrow Wilson— who had brought America into World War I, built up huge federal bureaucracies, imprisoned dissenters, and incurred $25 billion of debt.

Harding inherited Wilson's mess— in particular, a post–World War I depression that was almost as severe, from peak to trough, as the Great Contraction from 1929 to 1933 that FDR would later inherit. The estimated gross national product plunged 24 percent from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million to 4.9 million.
...
With Harding's tax and spending cuts and relatively non-interventionist economic policy, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million— a reported 6.7 percent of the labor force— in 1922. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway. The unemployment rate continued to decline, reaching an extraordinary low of 1.8 percent in 1926. Since then, the unemployment rate has been lower only once in wartime (1944), and never in peacetime.
...
While Harding can hardly be considered a champion of laissez-faire economics (he supported tariffs, after all), the pro-growth policies he implemented are directly responsible for the astonishingly rapid growth in prosperity— and widely shared prosperity— America enjoyed throughout the Roaring 20s.
...
Rather than follow the model of FDR— whose policies raised only Americans' spirits— President-Elect Obama ought to consider the model of Warren G. Harding, whose policies raised Americans' standard of living, and lifted the nation itself out of a depression— before it had a chance to become Great.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9880


Never the less, the 1920 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it vs the 1929 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it remain very instructional.

Glad to see your are recanting your miss facts about the Great Depression Alaska. Of course it is still the government's fault.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:42 PMCopy HTML

Well, you know... get old, you start contracting C.R.S., Can't Remember Shit.  

The two events are comparable, the 1920 depression being only slightly less severe than the 1929 depression.  What matters is the diametrically opposed ways the federal government reacted to each and the results. 

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:50 PMCopy HTML

BTW, since this thread was created, the national debt has grown by over 8 billion dollars.  As of this moment, we owe about $13,008,754,000,000.  Can't give you an exact number cause they're flashing by so fast...

$8 billion is enough to buy six hundred thousand six hundred and one 2011 Ford Fiestas at $13,320 each.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:56 PMCopy HTML

pfffft....ford.

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 1:00 PMCopy HTML

How many Hyundai's?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/28/2010 1:05 PMCopy HTML

Well, now we're up to 13,008,802,000,000.00 roughly.  A 2010 Hyundai accent 3 door(the 2011 isn't out yet) is $9,970 so we're looking at roughly 882,849 of them... but we could probably get a discount for buying in bulk. 

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/29/2010 12:14 AMCopy HTML

Under Bush unfunded Rx $8 trillion program the government did not ask for a discount for buying in bulk. 

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/29/2010 12:31 AMCopy HTML

Aprildaze
Back to blaming Bush, I do remember that he had the highest veto rate of any president.  He vetoed everything the congress brought to him.  It could be he was trying to keep spending under control, with a democratic senate.
 
There have been 2563 vetoes for an average of just under 64 every 8 years.  Bush vetoed 12 bills in 8 years.  You do the math

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/29/2010 1:33 AMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (05/28/2010 8:05 AM)

Well, now we're up to 13,008,802,000,000.00 roughly.  A 2010 Hyundai accent 3 door(the 2011 isn't out yet) is $9,970 so we're looking at roughly 882,849 of them... but we could probably get a discount for buying in bulk. 

At first I thought you meant you could by that many with the national debt - but I realize you meant we could buy that many with the amount the debt went up since you started this thread.

If you are curious - you could buy 1,304,794,584 Hyundai Accents with the more than $13 trillion - or about 4 for every man, woman and child in the United States.

Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：05/29/2010 1:50 AMCopy HTML

Good god.  The case for leaving the states when I retire grows ever stronger.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/03/2010 7:17 AMCopy HTML

As of this moment, the national debt stands at roughly $13,033,846,900,000.00.  An increase of roughly 33 billion dollars since this thread was first started 8 days ago. 

At $9,970 each, $33 billion is enough to buy 3,309,930 Hyundai Accents. 

$13,033,846,900,000 is enough to buy 1,307,306,610 of them.  1.3 billion hyundai accents. 

A hyundai accent is 168.5 inches long... a hair over 14 feet long.  Bumper to bumper, 1,307,306,610 hyundai accents would be 18,302,292,540 feet long... roughly 3,466,343 miles.

The average distance from earth to the moon is 238,857 miles.  1,307,306,610 hyundai accents laid end to end could go to the moon and back 7 times.

Am I starting to get through to any of the keynesians in this group?

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/03/2010 9:42 AMCopy HTML

Am I starting to get through to any of the keynesians in this group? 

I doubt it because, after all, they know it all and believe every word that comes from the LIAR in chief.

"The price good men (& women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:17 PMCopy HTML

$13,039,822,000,000

$39.8 billion since this thread was created 10 days ago.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:20 PMCopy HTML

Thank God OBumba can do no wrong.

Try to remember the kind of September when men weren't girls and girls weren't fellas..................

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:35 PMCopy HTML

Only congress can spend money.  However, since it has been the fashion to blame presidents for congressional spending in the past, it is fitting to blame it all on the current one.

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to alaskaone (06/04/2010 11:35 AM)

Only congress can spend money.  However, since it has been the fashion to blame presidents for congressional spending in the past, it is fitting to blame it all on the current one.

Thank you!  Thank you!!  Thank you!!!  

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Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 5:12 PMCopy HTML

We are still throwing dollars into a sewer in Iraq and in Afghanistan. ...

Precisely - and at an accelerated rate! 

And I agree with you very much Hayekian.

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Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM

Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast

Date Posted：06/04/2010 7:59 PMCopy HTML

Since I posted a few hours ago, the debt has gone up to 13,040,490,000,000.

668 million dollars in 3 hours.

That's 67,001 Hyundai's.  In three hours. 

Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken

alaskaone
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Date Posted：05/26/2010 4:01 PMCopy HTML AMERICA'S NATIONAL DEBT TOPS $13,000,000,000,000; DEBT PER TAXPAYER - $117,975; US DEBT TO GDP RATIO - 90.3% None of that includes unfunded liabilities, promises the federal government has made, in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare... among others, I'm sure. Last figure I saw which included those was months ago; -$107,000,000,000,000. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Punkoidragon	Share to: #31
Rank：TAE Member Score：7306 Posts：6760 From：USA Register：12/04/2008 1:32 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/27/2010 2:54 AMCopy HTML the "stroke of luck" their president had a stroke and couldn't/didn't "help" everyone with government brand stupid. Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
nofencesfacing	Share to: #32
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：02/21/2009 10:09 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/27/2010 6:10 AMCopy HTML There was pent-up demand that had to wait for businesses to retool after the war. With the $70 trillion loss under Bush there is no demand. You are trying to compare apples to a dead horse. What ended the Great Depression if not the outrages spending of WWII? If we do not get our economy going all is lost. What mess would there be in Afghanistan and the world if we cut and run now?
magdalena115	Share to: #33
Rank：TAE Member Score：7181 Posts：7153 From：USA Register：07/27/2008 12:02 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/27/2010 10:02 AMCopy HTML An excerpt from the article Natalie posted shows that cause does not always equal correlation. The deficit spending is being cited as what pulled us out of the depression when there are mulitiple other factors being ignored. The article Natalie posted compared actions from the depression in the 20s to the great depression. Interestingly, it shows a closer link to the actions we are pursuing now to those that acted as a catalyst for the Great Depression. It would seem the model we would want to use is that of the milder depression (i.e. which actions kept us from making the depression worse). It is true that Hoover eventually blinked and raised taxes in 1932, *in an effort to reduce the federal budget deficit. Today’s Keynesians point to this move as proof that reducing deficits is a bad idea in the middle of a depression.* *Yet an equally valid interpretation is that it’s horrible to hike tax rates in the middle of an economic disaster.* After the bold tax cuts pushed through by Andrew Mellon in the 1920s, the top marginal income-tax rate in 1932 stood at 25 percent. The next year, because of Hoover’s desire to close the budget hole, the top income tax rate was 63 percent. Given this extraordinary single-year rate hike, it is no wonder that 1933 was the single worst year in U.S. economic history. (For what it’s worth, the FY 1933 budget deficit was still huge, coming in at 4.5 percent of GDP. Despite the huge rate hikes, federal tax revenues only increased 3.8 percent from FY 1932 to FY 1933.) . *This context highlights the importance of the 1920–1921 depression. Here the government and Fed did the exact opposite of what the experts now recommend.* We have just about the closest thing to a controlled experiment in macroeconomics that one could desire. To repeat, it’s not that the government boosted the budget at a slower rate, or that the Fed provided a tad less liquidity. On the contrary, the government slashed its budget tremendously, and the Fed hiked rates to record highs. ...From FY 1919 to 1920, federal spending was slashed from $18.5 billion to $6.4 billion—*a 65 percent reduction in one year*. The budget was pushed down the next two years as well, to $3.3 billion in FY 1922. . “The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Ex_Member	Share to: #34
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：09/21/2018 12:36 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/27/2010 11:04 AMCopy HTML Back to blaming Bush, I do remember that he had the highest veto rate of any president. He vetoed everything the congress brought to him. It could be he was trying to keep spending under control, with a democratic senate.
alaskaone	Share to: #35
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/27/2010 4:26 PMCopy HTML Reply to magdalena115 (05/27/2010 1:02 AM) An excerpt from the article Natalie posted shows that cause does not always equal correlation. The deficit spending is being cited as what pulled us out of the depression when there are mulitiple other factors being ignored. The article Natalie posted compared actions from the depression in the 20s to the great depression. Interestingly, it shows a closer link to the actions we are pursuing now to those that acted as a catalyst for the Great Depression. It would seem the model we would want to use is that of the milder depression (i.e. which actions kept us from making the depression worse). As with most problems of a vast and complicated nature, it's best to let them sort themselves out on their own rather than meddle. We've forgotten the 1920 depression because the feds let it sort itself out while the 1929 recession was made into the Great Depression by the federal government trying to 'fix it'. The idiocy of the federal government from 1929 is beyond anything a rational person could truly believe. It's one of the reasons I'm so unimpressed by college educations... I mean, the kind of brain washing needed to force me to believe keynesian economics to be anything other than lunacy is not something I want to be subjected to. I've mentioned one particular example of federal lunacy during the depression it created; the AAA. FDR decided that the reason farms were failing was because the prices of food was too low. So what did he do? He sent swarms of officers into the farmlands where they slaughtered and buried millions of heads of livestock and plowed into the ground thousands acres of crops. The kind of mind that could think of those atrocities as 'good for the nation' is also the type of mind that could think a world war gets a nation out of an economic depression. Only a highly educated mind could wrap it's skull around such ideas and not explode in embarrassment and shame. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
nofencesfacing	Share to: #36
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：02/21/2009 10:09 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 5:46 AMCopy HTML 1920 was not a depression. If I am standing in line to buy goods that have not been produced then all businesses have to do is retool from making war goods to make consumer goods. If I just lost my job, my life savings and I standing in line to get a job then I am no longer a consumer. Then all businesses have to do is layoff workers, cut production and maybe even go out of business. That is s depression. Government has a different role to do in each case. Again the outrages spending in WWII got us out of the depression. We had a negative unemployment rate and record profits. That ended the Great Depression.
alaskaone	Share to: #37
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 5:51 AMCopy HTML Dude... there was a depression in 1920. It lasted a little over a year. By all economic measurements it was more severe than the recession that began in 1929. Use your google-fu, young man... "1920 depression"... there are many, many accounts of it from lots of sourses. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
nofencesfacing	Share to: #38
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：02/21/2009 10:09 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 11:58 AMCopy HTML In general what are the two things that must happen before an economic downturn can be called a depression? Does the “Depression” of 1920 meet those?
alaskaone	Share to: #39
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:23 PMCopy HTML Reviewing the 1920 depression, I find I have misremembered the stats. My apologies, NFF. The great depression started with slightly higher GNP and unemployement figures... I remembered them backward. America's greatest depression fighter was Warren Gamaliel Harding. An Ohio senator when he was elected president in 1920, he followed the much praised Woodrow Wilson— who had brought America into World War I, built up huge federal bureaucracies, imprisoned dissenters, and incurred $25 billion of debt. Harding inherited Wilson's mess— in particular, a post–World War I depression that was almost as severe, from peak to trough, as the Great Contraction from 1929 to 1933 that FDR would later inherit. The estimated gross national product plunged 24 percent from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million to 4.9 million. ... With Harding's tax and spending cuts and relatively non-interventionist economic policy, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million— a reported 6.7 percent of the labor force— in 1922. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway. The unemployment rate continued to decline, reaching an extraordinary low of 1.8 percent in 1926. Since then, the unemployment rate has been lower only once in wartime (1944), and never in peacetime. ... While Harding can hardly be considered a champion of laissez-faire economics (he supported tariffs, after all), the pro-growth policies he implemented are directly responsible for the astonishingly rapid growth in prosperity— and widely shared prosperity— America enjoyed throughout the Roaring 20s. ... Rather than follow the model of FDR— whose policies raised only Americans' spirits— President-Elect Obama ought to consider the model of Warren G. Harding, whose policies raised Americans' standard of living, and lifted the nation itself out of a depression— before it had a chance to become Great. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9880 Never the less, the 1920 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it vs the 1929 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it remain very instructional. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Ex_Member	Share to: #40
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：09/21/2018 12:36 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:24 PMCopy HTML Reply to nofencesfacing (05/28/2010 6:58 AM) In general what are the two things that must happen before an economic downturn can be called a depression? Does the “Depression” of 1920 meet those? Ok, I'll take a guess. You can't buy any more nylons and you can't buy any more cigarettes.
alaskaone	Share to: #41
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:26 PMCopy HTML Mainly, the difference between a depression and a recession is how long it lasts. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
tommytalldog	Share to: #42
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:30 PMCopy HTML A recession is when your neighbor loses his job. A depression is when you lose yours. Live respected, die regretted
tommytalldog	Share to: #43
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:32 PMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (05/28/2010 6:23 AM) Reviewing the 1920 depression, I find I have misremembered the stats. My apologies, NFF. The great depression started with slightly higher GNP and unemployement figures... I remembered them backward. America's greatest depression fighter was Warren Gamaliel Harding. An Ohio senator when he was elected president in 1920, he followed the much praised Woodrow Wilson— who had brought America into World War I, built up huge federal bureaucracies, imprisoned dissenters, and incurred $25 billion of debt. Harding inherited Wilson's mess— in particular, a post–World War I depression that was almost as severe, from peak to trough, as the Great Contraction from 1929 to 1933 that FDR would later inherit. The estimated gross national product plunged 24 percent from $91.5 billion in 1920 to $69.6 billion in 1921. The number of unemployed people jumped from 2.1 million to 4.9 million. ... With Harding's tax and spending cuts and relatively non-interventionist economic policy, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million— a reported 6.7 percent of the labor force— in 1922. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway. The unemployment rate continued to decline, reaching an extraordinary low of 1.8 percent in 1926. Since then, the unemployment rate has been lower only once in wartime (1944), and never in peacetime. ... While Harding can hardly be considered a champion of laissez-faire economics (he supported tariffs, after all), the pro-growth policies he implemented are directly responsible for the astonishingly rapid growth in prosperity— and widely shared prosperity— America enjoyed throughout the Roaring 20s. ... Rather than follow the model of FDR— whose policies raised only Americans' spirits— President-Elect Obama ought to consider the model of Warren G. Harding, whose policies raised Americans' standard of living, and lifted the nation itself out of a depression— before it had a chance to become Great. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9880 Never the less, the 1920 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it vs the 1929 depression and how the government 'dealt' with it remain very instructional. Glad to see your are recanting your miss facts about the Great Depression Alaska. Of course it is still the government's fault. Live respected, die regretted
alaskaone	Share to: #44
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:42 PMCopy HTML Well, you know... get old, you start contracting C.R.S., Can't Remember Shit. The two events are comparable, the 1920 depression being only slightly less severe than the 1929 depression. What matters is the diametrically opposed ways the federal government reacted to each and the results. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #45
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:50 PMCopy HTML BTW, since this thread was created, the national debt has grown by over 8 billion dollars. As of this moment, we owe about $13,008,754,000,000. Can't give you an exact number cause they're flashing by so fast... $8 billion is enough to buy six hundred thousand six hundred and one 2011 Ford Fiestas at $13,320 each. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
Punkoidragon	Share to: #46
Rank：TAE Member Score：7306 Posts：6760 From：USA Register：12/04/2008 1:32 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 12:56 PMCopy HTML pfffft....ford. Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
tommytalldog	Share to: #47
Rank：TAE Member Score：8997 Posts：8897 From：USA Register：12/08/2008 11:28 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 1:00 PMCopy HTML How many Hyundai's? Live respected, die regretted
alaskaone	Share to: #48
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/28/2010 1:05 PMCopy HTML Well, now we're up to 13,008,802,000,000.00 roughly. A 2010 Hyundai accent 3 door(the 2011 isn't out yet) is $9,970 so we're looking at roughly 882,849 of them... but we could probably get a discount for buying in bulk. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
nofencesfacing	Share to: #49
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：02/21/2009 10:09 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/29/2010 12:14 AMCopy HTML Under Bush unfunded Rx $8 trillion program the government did not ask for a discount for buying in bulk.
nofencesfacing	Share to: #50
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：02/21/2009 10:09 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/29/2010 12:31 AMCopy HTML Aprildaze Back to blaming Bush, I do remember that he had the highest veto rate of any president. He vetoed everything the congress brought to him. It could be he was trying to keep spending under control, with a democratic senate. There have been 2563 vetoes for an average of just under 64 every 8 years. Bush vetoed 12 bills in 8 years. You do the math
Hayekian	Share to: #51
Rank：TAE Member Score：3843 Posts：3723 From：USA Register：12/05/2008 3:35 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/29/2010 1:33 AMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (05/28/2010 8:05 AM) Well, now we're up to 13,008,802,000,000.00 roughly. A 2010 Hyundai accent 3 door(the 2011 isn't out yet) is $9,970 so we're looking at roughly 882,849 of them... but we could probably get a discount for buying in bulk. At first I thought you meant you could by that many with the national debt - but I realize you meant we could buy that many with the amount the debt went up since you started this thread. If you are curious - you could buy 1,304,794,584 Hyundai Accents with the more than $13 trillion - or about 4 for every man, woman and child in the United States. Comment: Part of the present problem in Washington is the lack of compromise. Response: It's always better for the bully when the bullied does not resist, isn't it?
alaskaone	Share to: #52
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：05/29/2010 1:50 AMCopy HTML Good god. The case for leaving the states when I retire grows ever stronger. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
alaskaone	Share to: #53
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/03/2010 7:17 AMCopy HTML As of this moment, the national debt stands at roughly $13,033,846,900,000.00. An increase of roughly 33 billion dollars since this thread was first started 8 days ago. At $9,970 each, $33 billion is enough to buy 3,309,930 Hyundai Accents. $13,033,846,900,000 is enough to buy 1,307,306,610 of them. 1.3 billion hyundai accents. A hyundai accent is 168.5 inches long... a hair over 14 feet long. Bumper to bumper, 1,307,306,610 hyundai accents would be 18,302,292,540 feet long... roughly 3,466,343 miles. The average distance from earth to the moon is 238,857 miles. 1,307,306,610 hyundai accents laid end to end could go to the moon and back 7 times. Am I starting to get through to any of the keynesians in this group? Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
GraphicQueen	Share to: #54
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：USA Register：01/02/2009 1:39 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/03/2010 9:42 AMCopy HTML Am I starting to get through to any of the keynesians in this group? I doubt it because, after all, they know it all and believe every word that comes from the LIAR in chief. "The price good men (& women) pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
alaskaone	Share to: #55
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:17 PMCopy HTML $13,039,822,000,000 $39.8 billion since this thread was created 10 days ago. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
skrumpie	Share to: #56
Rank：TAE Member Score：30103 Posts：28171 From：Argentina Register：08/30/2008 6:26 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:20 PMCopy HTML Thank God OBumba can do no wrong. Try to remember the kind of September when men weren't girls and girls weren't fellas..................
alaskaone	Share to: #57
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:35 PMCopy HTML Only congress can spend money. However, since it has been the fashion to blame presidents for congressional spending in the past, it is fitting to blame it all on the current one. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken
skrumpie	Share to: #58
Rank：TAE Member Score：30103 Posts：28171 From：Argentina Register：08/30/2008 6:26 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 4:38 PMCopy HTML Reply to alaskaone (06/04/2010 11:35 AM) Only congress can spend money. However, since it has been the fashion to blame presidents for congressional spending in the past, it is fitting to blame it all on the current one. Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!! Try to remember the kind of September when men weren't girls and girls weren't fellas..................
Lodi__	Share to: #59
Rank：TAE Member Score：1636 Posts：1508 From：USA Register：01/11/2009 11:45 PM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 5:12 PMCopy HTML We are still throwing dollars into a sewer in Iraq and in Afghanistan. ... Precisely - and at an accelerated rate! And I agree with you very much Hayekian.
alaskaone	Share to: #60
Rank：TAE Member Score：19447 Posts：17177 From：USA Register：12/03/2008 3:25 AM	Re：-$124 trillion in debt/liabilities and growing fast Date Posted：06/04/2010 7:59 PMCopy HTML Since I posted a few hours ago, the debt has gone up to 13,040,490,000,000. 668 million dollars in 3 hours. That's 67,001 Hyundai's. In three hours. Come to the Dark Side. We have cookies. The advantage of insinuations over hard arguments is that they bypass critical thought. No one can respond precisely to a charge that is utterly vague or to accusers who will envelope any reply in a poisonous fog of further insinuations. ~ David Warren, The Guardian There was a time when there was enough freedom that it hardly mattered which brand of crooks ran government. That has not been true for a long time and that captures an important point. The more powerful the government becomes, the more people are willing to do in order to seize the prize, and the more afraid they become when someone else has control. ~ Glenn Harlan Reynolds “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.” ― H.L. Mencken